Positive reviews for Sweeney Todd (reprinted from a comment in someone else's LJ)

[fpb]

I see. They like it because it makes mass murder and cannibalism entertaining. Well, as a historian, I have had enough of that in my subject, and I must say that I do not see the fun in it. Hollywood, however, does, ever since The Silence of the Lambs and Fried Green Tomatoes. But then, an industry that relies on the regular destruction of its own personnel may not have any trouble with cannibalism. I wonder - has anyone ever checked the ingredients in Hollywood restaurants and caterers?

Comments

[izhilzha.livejournal.com]

Oh, good grief. Go watch it, if you're that interested in maligning it. The music is wonderful, and it's not a film (or musical, since it was written for the stage) glorifying murder and cannibalism, it's a morality play (as much good horror is): the moral is that when you focus your life around vengeance, you only harm yourself and the ones you love the most.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

It was, of course, necessary to have dozens of "funny" murders (the fact that Sacha Barron Cohen was cast as one of the victims tells its own story) to make that point. And the point itself one we have never met before, right? It is also one that is vital to our civilization: just exactly how many people do you know who are focussed on vengeance? As opposed to, say, the search for increasingly disgusting pleasures? If you want to make a morality play, make one about pornography. That would be a serious modern concern. Which is why nobody will ever make one - certainly not the Burtons of this world.

[izhilzha.livejournal.com]

Well, I know nobody can make you change your mind, so....believe whatever you like. I normally do not like gore (not for its own sake; I am interested in what stories can reveal about character, about human nature--including our desire for justice to triumph, which is why I love mysteries and detective stories), but this film I did enjoy, because it was creepy and macabre, and I didn't think it glorified the violence at all. It was quite effectively disturbing. Hence my own positive review in my LJ.

Sweeney Todd

[elskuligr.livejournal.com]

I would defend Tim Burton's movie as well, although it probably doesn't need my prose to impress.
Of course, there is much violence, but interestingly none that is naturalistic in its representation: look at the colour of the blood! that as such is of course not enough to prove that the movie is not an apology of violence, but it is at least a good clue as to what the movie is trying to do.
I see Sweeney Todd as a macabre fairy tale, much more concerned with story telling and the violence and horror lurking in the darker side of our imagination than with real life violence between human beings.
Are all the murders necessary? of course: what kind of a monster Blue Beard would be if he had only killed one wife? part of the attraction of the tale comes from the shocking image of all the corpses of the previous brides all in the same room, and the gory detail of the blood that won't disappear from the little key. This image is what constitute Blue Beard as a proper monster, the kind of monster that needs to be killed for the fairy tale world to be cleansed and its "cosmic" balance reestablished.
Similarly, the image of Sweeney Todd killing dozens, of the bodies falling through the trapdoor and of his shiny razorblades is necessary to make him a proper nightmare creature, the embodiment of the ugliness of revenge, sadness, violence, hatred...etc
And fittingly, he and his companion get punished with the instruments of their crimes.
The reason why the fairy tale is of a somewhat macabre sort though, is that the world is not cleansed and no equilibrium is regained after the monsters have been killed: even for the apparently innocent heroine Johanna, there are only nightmares, no happy dreams.
Still, I don't think considering this movie an apology of violence is a fair assesment, on the contrary.
It is more like an incomplete exorcism.
Some of the monsters lurking in our nightmares may have been killed, but there is no promise that it will be enough for anybody to live happily ever after, because the darkness is everywhere.

Re: Sweeney Todd

[fpb.livejournal.com]

And there you struck the exact reason why the movie is self-indulgent and really the opposite of what you say. Do you think that the happy ending is a detachable and optional part of any fable? Do you think that JKR would have built an equally good story if it had turned out that Harry achieved precisely nothing by killing his monster, because the world itself was sordid, ugly and evil? Do you think that it is pandering when Disney resurrects Snow-White? Rubbish. The happy ending against all the odds expresses the universal human belief that the moral law really is, in some mysterious way, part of the law of nature and inherent in the universe; that good really wins, and evil really loses, because the world is made for the one and not for the other. By creating a world where ST is defeated without any difference to the moral texture of the world at large, Burton has created a world where evil is natural, woven into reality, even where it is self-destructive. That is the reason of his livid colouring and vicious lighting. His is that kind of world: the only superiority exhibited is not moral - any character with any pretence of goodness, like the unfortunate Johanna, are crushed under the wheel of existence - but of skill and power, and that places Sweeney in what is in effect the hero's position. He ends up badly not because he is in the wrong, but because, in this world, EVERYTHING ends up badly; but what a time he has had until then! If this narrative structure is not an effective apology for living at the expense of others - they will do it to you if you let them - I never met one.

Re: Sweeney Todd

[theswordmaiden.livejournal.com]

Maybe Burton does view the world as essentially and naturally evil.

Re: Sweeney Todd

[fpb.livejournal.com]

My point exactly. That's what makes it self-indulgent. As in: "Why should I bother about being nice to the other guy? It's a dog eat dog world anyway..."

Re: Sweeney Todd

[elskuligr.livejournal.com]

Again, I beg to differ (and again my message is going to be a bit longish, sorry about that), seeing the world as ugly is quite distinct from being self-indulgent and taking the first as evidence of the latter does not seem logically sound to me.
Of course the ending of a tale has a huge impact on its meaning. Harry Potter can't end badly because it is essentially a Bildungsroman, so there would be no sense in it if the hero did not become an adult at the end of the series. On the other hand, Sweeney Todd can't end well, otherwise it would negate its whole point, which is the exploration of a nightmare, of the darker side of man if you want, which can't disappear as if by magic.
Having the story end well would be a lie, a contradiction of the notion conveyed by the story that cruelty and darkness are essential part of man and especially of the city.
Yes it is not a constructive, positive image of life, but there is no reason why it should be.
Heart of Darkness is none of these things, that doesn't make it immoral or self-indulgent in the slightest. Optimism is not a criterion of morality.
As far as morality goes, I would certainly agree that the movie is not very rich.
In Sweeney Todd what matters the most is the tale as such rather than any moral teaching it might bring. But if it doesn't teach us to act morally (and there is no reason why art should make this its first business), it certainly doesn't teach to act immorally either: first because its business in general is not to teach, but to tell a tale and second because none of the villains receive lasting gratification for their crimes and this fact does matter, even if there is no restoration of the order of the world or any return to some prelapserian paradise.
Does Sweeney Todd find pleasure in killing, does he get happines from it for a while until he is killed himself? I don't think so. The representation is certainly meant to elicit a fascination in the audience, based partly on purely aesthetic grounds and on a form of morbid humour, but it is far from obvious that the character who, to all intent and purpose, died as a human being 15 years ago, gains any satisfaction from it all.
Similarly, the baker might gain some financial gratification from her crimes for a while, but is she happy? She lied to obtain the love of a man, only to be tolerated by him and then hated by him when he discovers the truth.
If any criticism can leveled at the movie on moral grounds, it is not that it teaches wrong things, but that it does not confront the moral issues at stake on a very deep level, and takes a greater interest in the telling of the tale itself.
However, I do not think that every work of art has to make moral issues its first and foremost aim, so I don't see this as a problem, as long as the movie does not pretend to achieve more than that.

[super-pan.livejournal.com]

Gosh, I don't remember any mass murder or cannibalism in Fried Green Tomatoes. But then, I don't think I ever really saw the movie anyway (I know I've seen bits and pieces, but I can't remember if I ever watched the whole thing)

I can't comment on the merit of Sweeney Todd, but I did decide not to see it, because I just can't handle the violence and gore.

Take up the pen, and write

[johncwright.livejournal.com]

"The happy ending against all the odds expresses the universal human belief that the moral law really is, in some mysterious way, part of the law of nature and inherent in the universe; that good really wins, and evil really loses, because the world is made for the one and not for the other."

God bless you for saying this, sir! I hope they give you in heaven a trumpet of thunders, so that the voice of that sounding brass will make the forces of darkness scatter and cower and all their bat-wings tremble!

Well said, sir! Well said!

If you can write fanfic, you can write real fic, and, unlike every other author I know, you have something to say. If I can write and sell my work, so can any man who is willing to put in the long hours. It would be a grace to the readership of this darkened world for you to consider it. There are stories in you, deep and beautiful as things from the bottom of the sea: I would wager on it.

Re: Take up the pen, and write

[fpb.livejournal.com]

I do think of my fics with quite a bit of pride, as a matter of fact. And as I already said, I would be delighted to have the honour of a review by you. (From the point of view of what was just said, you might particularly appreciate "And Nobody Will Ever Know".)

[fpb.livejournal.com]

The murdered abusive husband is served to the clientele as food, as I recall. Same shtick as Sweeney, with bright country background instead of livid nightmarish London. And they only do it once, I think.

[carlanime-bligh.livejournal.com]

If you can write fanfic, you can write real fic, and, unlike every other author I know, you have something to say.

I have to express my agreement with this; I personally hope fpb will do a fantasy series someday.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

I have written a lot of comics in the past, but gave it up because I was professionally going nowhere. At least with fanfics, you know someone is going to read the bloody things.

It ain't what you can do. It's who likes you.

Re: Sweeney Todd

[fpb.livejournal.com]

Long, thoughtful (and polite) responses are very welcome in this blog. The fact that you take the trouble to respond with the best your intellect can offer is itself a compliment. Nevertheless, I think you are still rather a victim to self-indulgent modern categories. You quoted the fable of Bluebeard; but Bluebeard ends not just in the destruction of the villain, but also in an assertion of the value of decency - although modified by the ancient peasant cunning that says "if you meddle in what is no concern of yours" (that is, if you become curious about Bluebeard's secrets), "you'll end up in trouble." You do, but in the end, it is the murderer who is punished. The way in which Sondheim and Burton tackle the dirty old anecdote is to deny any correspondence between reality and morality: in fact, they positively reverse it. The world as they describe it is the world as Sweeney sees it - bloodshot, livid, vicious, ugly. Tell me, does it answer to your experience of reality? It does not to mine. In my world, the sun shines equally, and the snow fall equally, on the good and the evil, and Ol'Man River does go rolling along in spite of all the ugliness he may witness. The background even to the darkest tragedies is inevitably beautiful. If you insist on looking at the world through smoke-coloured spectacles, you tell nothing true about it, merely impose upon it your own obsessions. And that is self-indulgent.

[carlanime-bligh.livejournal.com]

It ain't what you can do. It's who likes you.

Agreed, but still: it seems a waste of talent and of a unique voice.
Well, not a waste; that's presumptious of me, and if your fanfiction brings you satisfaction that's all to the good. But it would be fascinating to see what you'd do with your own fictional world. (Are your comics available anywhere--online or 'zines or anything?)

[fpb.livejournal.com]

I long since ran out of hand-made copies, and I just discovered (perfect timing!) that my scanner is dead, so, for the time being, even if I wanted to put my stuff online, I could not. I will publish or re-publish a few sketches, and some of my comics characters are featured in two fics, "Harry Potter and the Silver Angel" and "Hermione Granger and the Nundu". I am thinking of writing an AU longfic starting from the premise of "Harry Potter and the Silver Angel" (where SA and her queen Athena offered their help against Voldemort) and Snape and Dumbledore call on SA and Athena after Dumbledore comes home nearly killed by the curse of Marvolo's ring, but the problem ist that I am mulling a similar continuity and a similar story for another longfic I have in mind.

Re: Sweeney Todd

[theswordmaiden.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I think that it probably is a dog eat dog world, however I do not believe that this makes it okay to eat other dogs; on the contrary, I do my best to resist that kind of attitude toward other people and try to improve things, instead.

If a movie portrays a world as being naturally evil, then it would influence me even more to resist it. But that's as far as I can go, regarding the movie. I mean his movie may portray the world this way, but I haven't seen it, so I don't know if it is trying to convince people to not let the world be this way, or to show that we shouldn't bother being nice. If it's the latter, then, yeah. I wouldn't like that.

Re: Sweeney Todd

[jezreelite.livejournal.com]

What about Charles Perrault's version of "Little Red Riding Hood?"

Ultimately, Sweeney Todd is a morality tale about the futilities of revenge. It's rather strange that you seem to have missed that entirely.

[jezreelite.livejournal.com]

Aren't you going to tell us about how sorry you felt for the husband and that Fannie Flagg is a feminazi?

[fpb.livejournal.com]

No, I'm not. Just because you like to set up straw men to knock down is no reason why I should indulge your idea of masturbation. And incidentally, using your fingers on your sexual organs is rather more wholesome than making fantasy hate figures. Try it some time.