To all the Catholics on my f-list - Non-Catholics, stay the Hell away or you WILL be offended

[fpb]

There is a priest in Boulder, Colorado, who is under vicious, systematic, directed attack because he is keeping the teachings of the Church and the orders of his Bishop. I have some experience of how it feels like to be at the wrong (or is it?) end of the kind of vile hatred that is being directed at this man. So I tell the Catholics and Christians on my f-list: follow this link and do what it says - http://wdtprs.com/blog/2010/03/to-arms-denver-priest-attacked-for-being-obedient-poll-alert/ - and then go to the priest's own blog and register a personal message of support. While a good man has enough in himself to stand up for the Church even to martyrdom - and to be fair, that does not yet seem to be the case here - anyone who is subjected to hundreds of direct sexually explicit threats can do with kind words from a distant country.

Comments

[expectare.livejournal.com]

See, THIS was all you had to say, and this was actually what I was looking for. Instead, you were a jerk and insulted me and my motivations repeatedly. Apparently the past two years of knowing me are irrelevant when you are on an ego trip.

[un-crayon-rouge.livejournal.com]

Clearly, God is on your side :-)

(I hope this is not offensive or anything, it was just too good to pass up on...)

[fpb.livejournal.com]

If I had not expected the best from you, I would not have put in a gag which an ill-meaning opponent might have used against me. (The smiley is for third parties who might not immediately understand.) Besides, we do believe that God is on our side. Have you ever heard the oldest Catholic joke in the world - the unbeliever who went to Rome?

[un-crayon-rouge.livejournal.com]

No, please do tell. I might not be a catholic, but being spanish I believe I am qualified to appreciate catholic humor...

[fpb.livejournal.com]

Your very first question was in the exact tone and vocabulary I would have expected from either a Jack T.Chick or a Richard Dawkins fan; so I started nothing. And I was stunned to get the kind of reductio ad absurdum that could be argued against any act of discrimination whatever, from you of all people. Look at it. Read it again. It does not sound like the kind of question that expects a constructive answer.

"Answer all my questions, yes or no."

[fpb.livejournal.com]

1) You did, and I cannot imagine why.
2) You did not go and read the priest's own blog, or if you did, you acted exactly as if you did not.
3) Until now, I did not.
4) That is why I brought it up. Because it was something you would understand immediately and without discussion.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

It was first told by Boccaccio, but it is still told in the streets of Rome today as if it had been just thought up, and maybe you have heard it.

Once upon a time there were two friends. One was a devout but ignorant Catholic, and the other was a quick-witted and well-read Jew (or you can make him a Lutheran, or a Communist, or the enemy du jour, whoever). They would often debate religion and related matters, and the unbeliever tended to tie up the Catholic in knots. At which point the Catholic friend would usually reply: "Well, you can get me because I'm ignorant. You should go and argue this with our great prelates and Cardinals in Rome, I'm sure they could answer you."

So one day the Jew decided to take him at his word. Besides, he had business in Italy, and besides, he fancied a visit to the great city.

Many months passed. Eventually the friend came back... baptized.

"So you did argue with them?"

"Well, not exactly."

"What do you mean?"

"Well, I was in Rome a long time. A long time. And I had a good opportunity to see how things are done and how the Church works. And I had to conclude that God was indeed holding it up, because nothing else could possibly explain that something so crazy could still be going on!"

[un-crayon-rouge.livejournal.com]

LOL; no, I had not heard it, and it's a good one :-)

[inverarity.livejournal.com]

Long and thoughtful doesn't preclude something from being a rant. I also didn't refer to that particular article as hateful (though OSC has been hateful in other rants).

As for this school situation: obviously, I disagree with the RCC's position and the school's actions, but I don't know why you think I or most people on the opposite side of the divide from you would endorse threats of violence against them. Obviously, I do not.

I am curious to know whether this school also expels students whose parents are discovered to be adulterers, divorced, etc., though.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

As I repeatedly answered in this thread, the invention of "homosexual marriage" is against Christian doctrine at a much deeper level than just legitimizing illegitimate lust. It is, in fact, the umpteenth rebirth of the never-enough-silenced heresy of Docetism - the first recorded heresy in Christian history: that is the idea that the physical nature of man has nothing to do with man's essence, that the whole business of physical life is nothing to do with the spiritual and with God. (Docetism began with a rejection of the idea that God could have wholly incarnated Himself, let alone died.) If two souls can be sacramentally joined in despite of their physical features, then the whole idea of body and soul as one, and of God becoming incarnate to die as a man, is completely destroyed. And you might understand that this is an attack on Christianity a bit more extreme than even the legalization of lust as such.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

As I said, I had a little experience of what happens to anyone who gets on the wrong side of militant homosexualists. I have forced myself to post this, because the experience was so scarring that I really did not want to do it over again. There are only so many threats of homosexual rape (for your own good, of course) that you can get before you become sick of the very air those people breathe. And the reason why I forced myself to post this is that I am absolutely certain that that poor priest is getting a hundred times what I got, every day, and for no worse reason than having done his duty.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

Oh, and some advice: nobody who does not agree with you already - and plenty who do - will ever describe that particular OS Card article as a "rant". If you are trying to get through to anyone, to call something a "rant" when it does not have any of the features people commonly associate with rants (and as someone who can rant with the worst, I ought to know) will do nothing except make them suspect you of partiality and narrow-mindedness; and, should they harbour ideas that disagree with yours, it will make them less willing to show them to you.

[inverarity.livejournal.com]

That's actually pretty interesting -- thank you. I am fairly well-read about early Christian theology, but I was not familiar with Docetism.

Now, if I may ask you a serious question without you interpreting it as an attack on your religion or an attempt to engage you in a fight? (Let's just leave it as a given that I don't share your beliefs, okay?) Because I'm genuinely interested here:

Are you saying that the RCC's position is, in fact, that homosexuals are more serious sinners than, say, adulterers or divorcees or people who use birth control or abortion? Or is that specifically gay marriage is an attack on church teachings? If this child's parents were openly gay but not claiming to be married, would they have been treated just like any other sinners (i.e., every other child's parents)?

[geeklady.livejournal.com]

It's a parish school, not the inquisition. Their mission is to provide a Catholic education, and the diocesan policies exist to protect and promote their ability to do so. They are limited by what is publicly known. They have neither the resources nor the right to ferret out every iota of defiance of Church teaching.

Furthermore, it should also be noted that in every situation we've listed so far, the possibility exists for reconciliation - except for a same sex relationship. Marriages may be regularized, opinions may be changed, but nothing can bring a same sex relationship into line with the teachings of the Church. It is as diametrically opposed as it is possible to be.

Finally, you need to understand how thoroughly fatiguing and frustrating it is to constantly have members of your faith harassed in the name of tolerance. I know it makes me want to hit something, and while I cannot speak for others I suspect I am not alone. To drop a comment like your first onto a post where the author gives ample warning signs that he is not in the mood to cope with impertinent and incorrect comments about parish school attendance requirements is unwise.

[geeklady.livejournal.com]

Any time.

[inverarity.livejournal.com]

Well, I wasn't trying to "get through to anyone." On my own LJ, as you know, I am not really interested in debating religion and politics right now, so inasmuch as I may occasionally drop comments that indicate some of my views, they aren't posted with the intention of swaying people who disagree with me.

That doesn't mean no one is allowed to disagree with me (it's certainly never stopped you! :P), but no, I wasn't writing that thinking, "I hope anyone reading this will be convinced that Orson Scott Card is a jerk." I was just stating my opinion about him.

I do think it's kind of funny for you to be giving advice on how to win people over to your side, though. ;)

[fpb.livejournal.com]

In a word, no. For that matter, a lot of homosexuals are not even interested in "gay marriage", and the vast majority of its supporters are as straight as a plummet line.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

To be fair, Kate is actually a Catholic herself. That is what stunned me.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

I am a world expert on all the ways not to do it, so you should pay attention.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

I mean, yes, the specific doctrine of gay marriage is what gives this situation a special significance. In the past, the Church might have paid less attention at a child growing up with two close male or female friends if it was understood that a Catholic education is what they wanted. But the rise of this wholly subversive claim about marriage makes the situation different in the extreme.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

Oh, and I said "get through to", not "win over". In point of fact, I do not believe that the point of discussion is to convince the other guy. It is, however, hugely important that you and he should understand each other.

[geeklady.livejournal.com]

I apologies, I'm not good at picking up this type of contextual information.

[geeklady.livejournal.com]

also I cannot compose sentences coherently anymore. That should read "my apologies"

[fpb.livejournal.com]

I guess I've probably seen worse if I could only remember when....

[panobjecticon.livejournal.com]

ummm, these 22 as far as i could count, people and their one or two placards http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7U-hOM2p4r4 don't seem to be particularly vicious or demonically ferocious really, do they?