I'm sorry, Fabio, but I happen to have a large part of my family living in the Netherlands, and I really don't wish plague and fire on them. I've read a lot of unkind comments on your LJ about the Dutch, but this is taking it a bit too far for me. I appreciate that this is your LJ, and you're allowed to write whatever you like in it. However, I would really appreciate it if you could rephrase the title of this post.
Rephrase the decision to defame and expel Ayaan Hirsi Ali and I shall rephrase my post. And be grateful that some members of her party are showing some connection with humanity, because Rita Verdonk, as far as I am concerned, has taken complete leave of any connection however distant with the species Homo Sapiens. The Netherlands have to decide, now, whether they stand for anything except murder. Instead of being annoyed at me, I suggest you do something to awaken your relatives to the enormity being committed by their - for want of a better word - government.
If you follow politics as well as you say, you know very well that the current government of the Netherlands is no more a reflection of the results of the last elections than Georges W. Bush was properly elected President of the US in 2000. I've read Ms. Ayaan Hirsi Ali's biography on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali), and while I accept that she's a very brave person and she stands for a lot of good things, she has been very foolish, and now it's catching up with her. If she lied about her identity with the Dutch Immigration Services, she should have kept it to herself. The rules of this service are very harsh (my cousin had a lot of problems to get his wife to the Netherlands, it took them several years before she was able to come from Singapore and they were allowed to get married) and she should have realized that as a politician she would make enemies who would exploit her every weakness. As to her problems with her neighbours, you have to admit that she is in a lot of danger, but she still didn't like the idea of staying in hiding. Again, that is very brave of her, but what if someone places a bomb in her house, and the neighbouring houses get blasted away? Imagine, if these are people with families and children, would you want to live next to her? And frankly, Fabio, how would you like it if one of your friends told you basically "if you don't want me to offend you, you should start manipulating your family until they all think like me". I'm aware that you have a bad temper, sometimes, and I'm willing to make allowances for you, but I have my limits.
I will say this only once. We are at war with radical islam. Everyone is in danger - men, women, children. Anyone who uses children as an excuse to surrender to murderers does not deserve any. If you cannot see the elementary path of obvious duty, then we have nothing to say to each other.
Then I guess I'm allowed to wish plague and fire on the people who voted for this guy : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silvio_Berlusconi because after all corruption is a question of morality, too.
You may have missed one or two of the things I said about Berlu-scummy. But scummy though he is, he welcomed to Italy the persecuted Afghani convert to Christianity, Abdel Rahman, and committed his government to protecting the Egyptian journalist, now an Italian citizen, Magdi Allam. Compare and contrast. I would have thought incredible that anyone would manage to make Berlusconi look good, but Verdonk and Balkenende and the gutless ordinary Dutch citizens who went to law to drive Hirsi Ali from their homes managed that nearly-impossible enterprise.
You may have missed one or two of the things I said about Berlu-scummy. No, I didn't miss them. But I did make a sweeping generalization in my comment : I wished plague and fire on the smart and brave Italians who voted against Berlusconi, just like you wished plague and fire on all Dutch people, including those who had *not* voted for Balkenende (who got back into power because he didn't want to enter a coalition with the PvdA, who actually won the last election). Maybe we would both be smarter if we both wished bad things to happen to the people who actually do bad things and if we wished diseases that are not contagious and disasters that do not apread so easily on them. But scummy though he is, he welcomed to Italy the persecuted Afghani convert to Christianity, Abdel Rahman, and committed his government to protecting the Egyptian journalist, now an Italian citizen, Magdi Allam. Compare and contrast. Well, so far, the Dutch government has given her asylum, has elected her in office and has given her 24/7 police protection. If we look at it in terms of result, she has been better protected than Theo van Gogh, who was as Dutch as you get. Yes, her Dutch citizenship was revoked, and that was due to the pressure of an MP who caters to the people with the most unsavoury "opinions", but seen as the reasons for the revocation had been known for years, I think that people have been turning a blind eye on it for ages. Would that have happened if she hadn't been so famous? I don't know, but if I remember well, you don't exactly approve of double standards. She hasn't been driven out of the country: she still has her residence permit, and I bet she could re-apply for Dutch citizenship if she wanted. She's the one who decided to leave the country. As for her neighbours? Maybe they're gutless ordinary Dutch citizens, I don't know. But I'm amused that she thinks she will have better neighbours in the US: I've got a colleague whose neighbours harass because he doesn't mow his lawn, so I'm curious to know how her new neighbours will react to the constant police presence and the idea that a Muslim terrorist can decide to blow up the place any time. Oh well, maybe she will decide to live in the American countryside, in one of those places where your nearest neighbour is miles away. But then if she gets better treated by her neighbours in the US than in the Netherlands, don't tell me it's the fault of the people, because that would be plain biased.
I am biased against the Dutch. Euthanasia, the murder of disabled babies, and in this case the vile persecution of someone who has stood up to one of the greatest and most dangerous evils of our time, are enough to convince me that there is a nation who have sold their collective soul to the Devil. And you are defending the worst of them, not the best. If you imagine for one minute that any other country would behave like those villainous and crooked neighbours who went to court for the privilege of being quivering, gutless cowards, for the privilege of knuckling under to violence and terrorism, you have a very strange idea of mankind at large. Maybe we Italians are a bit too used to violence - we have, after all, defeated our own terrorists, reduced the mightiest crime organization in the world to a shadow of what it was, and made heroes rather than outcasts of those who risked their lives and limbs doing so. But what really bewilders me is this: as we write, there is a major parliamentary revolt going on, with Verdonk threatened with a vote of non-convidence and Balknenende shamefully trying to move away from her. There are people in the Dutch parliament, including members of the current majority, who realize what a total disgrace, what a sub-human display of spinelessness, this affair has been. And instead of referring to them and using them to defend your country, you talk as though Verdonk and Balkenende were the ones you have to defend; and miss the opportunity to point out that not all the Dutch are as craven and murderously cowardly as I made them. You think you are defending your country, when you defame it worse than anything I could do.
And instead of referring to them and using them to defend your country, you talk as though Verdonk and Balkenende were the ones you have to defend; and miss the opportunity to point out that not all the Dutch are as craven and murderously cowardly as I made them. You think you are defending your country, when you defame it worse than anything I could do. Well, I only read that excuse for an editorial you posted and the article I linked you to on Wikipedia. But if you say that the affair is not over and that things can get better for Aayan Hirsi Ali, aren't you a bit quick to judge? Besides, I don't really think I was defending Verdonk or Balkenende, but pointing out a couple of things that Melanie Phillips seems to have forgotten about in her rush to sympathise for Aayan Hirsi Ali. War against radical Islam or not, I don't like it when people try to manipulate me, wittingly or not. I'm not saying that nobody ever manages to manipulate me, because that's probably false, but at least I try to use my brain, if it were only because it wouldn't make radical Islamists happy. I am biased against the Dutch. I think I noticed that before. Maybe it is because there are some ideas that are deeply ingrained in the Dutch mind that are very much at odds with what it required for you as a Catholic (and I may be wrong in this, but if I am, please try to tell me so without crushing my ego. It never killed anyone, baby or not, and it even didn't drive a brave activist out of the country). Dutch people are thouroughly convinced that you should be free to do whatever you like, no matter what religious leaders say, as long as it doesn't hurt anybody else. That's why they approve of legalizing drugs, of euthanasia (at the time of the big debate, I looked at the actual rules for it: to be able to get euthanaized, you need the signature of at least a couple of doctors and the certainty that there is really no hope whatsoever). The theory is that, if something is legalized, at least it happens in a controlled environment, in the open, and everybody can see that nobody was murdered for the inheritance or their life insurance, nobody was fed bad chemicals that damaged their bodies even more and they weren't lured to consume even viler stuff. It's a very pragmatic approach that is thouroughly uncatholic. I know that you're a devout Catholic, and that's admirable. I know that you don't understand the Dutch mind and that you think it's absolutely horrible, but can you please be content that we're all going to Hell and not ruin my day when it's hardly started?
That was partly sarcarstic. In reality, my attitude is the opposite. It would not, in my view, be possible to tolerate the success and unpunished shamelessness of evil in this world - the thought of, say, Josef Stalin or Ayatollah Khomeini dying in their beds after all the misery they caused - if one did not believe in eternal life and Hell. Ethically and politically, the Netherlands are a plague spot in Europe, and their obstinate insistence on evil really is a problem for me. My country may not be much to write about morally, but we welcome and protect escapers from tyranny and persecution, and it would never occur to any Italian to throw them back to the wolves for any reason. And as such a thing would not occur to me, I cannot imagine the depth of degradation in which it comes to seem conceivable - let alone acceptable.
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no subject
Date: 2006-05-16 03:57 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-05-16 04:14 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-05-16 05:41 pm (UTC)I've read Ms. Ayaan Hirsi Ali's biography on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali), and while I accept that she's a very brave person and she stands for a lot of good things, she has been very foolish, and now it's catching up with her. If she lied about her identity with the Dutch Immigration Services, she should have kept it to herself. The rules of this service are very harsh (my cousin had a lot of problems to get his wife to the Netherlands, it took them several years before she was able to come from Singapore and they were allowed to get married) and she should have realized that as a politician she would make enemies who would exploit her every weakness. As to her problems with her neighbours, you have to admit that she is in a lot of danger, but she still didn't like the idea of staying in hiding. Again, that is very brave of her, but what if someone places a bomb in her house, and the neighbouring houses get blasted away? Imagine, if these are people with families and children, would you want to live next to her?
And frankly, Fabio, how would you like it if one of your friends told you basically "if you don't want me to offend you, you should start manipulating your family until they all think like me". I'm aware that you have a bad temper, sometimes, and I'm willing to make allowances for you, but I have my limits.
no subject
Date: 2006-05-16 06:09 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-05-16 06:39 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-05-16 07:18 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-05-16 07:38 pm (UTC)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silvio_Berlusconi
because after all corruption is a question of morality, too.
no subject
Date: 2006-05-16 07:44 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-05-16 08:16 pm (UTC)No, I didn't miss them. But I did make a sweeping generalization in my comment : I wished plague and fire on the smart and brave Italians who voted against Berlusconi, just like you wished plague and fire on all Dutch people, including those who had *not* voted for Balkenende (who got back into power because he didn't want to enter a coalition with the PvdA, who actually won the last election). Maybe we would both be smarter if we both wished bad things to happen to the people who actually do bad things and if we wished diseases that are not contagious and disasters that do not apread so easily on them.
But scummy though he is, he welcomed to Italy the persecuted Afghani convert to Christianity, Abdel Rahman, and committed his government to protecting the Egyptian journalist, now an Italian citizen, Magdi Allam. Compare and contrast.
Well, so far, the Dutch government has given her asylum, has elected her in office and has given her 24/7 police protection. If we look at it in terms of result, she has been better protected than Theo van Gogh, who was as Dutch as you get. Yes, her Dutch citizenship was revoked, and that was due to the pressure of an MP who caters to the people with the most unsavoury "opinions", but seen as the reasons for the revocation had been known for years, I think that people have been turning a blind eye on it for ages. Would that have happened if she hadn't been so famous? I don't know, but if I remember well, you don't exactly approve of double standards. She hasn't been driven out of the country: she still has her residence permit, and I bet she could re-apply for Dutch citizenship if she wanted. She's the one who decided to leave the country. As for her neighbours? Maybe they're gutless ordinary Dutch citizens, I don't know. But I'm amused that she thinks she will have better neighbours in the US: I've got a colleague whose neighbours harass because he doesn't mow his lawn, so I'm curious to know how her new neighbours will react to the constant police presence and the idea that a Muslim terrorist can decide to blow up the place any time. Oh well, maybe she will decide to live in the American countryside, in one of those places where your nearest neighbour is miles away. But then if she gets better treated by her neighbours in the US than in the Netherlands, don't tell me it's the fault of the people, because that would be plain biased.
no subject
Date: 2006-05-16 08:25 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-05-16 09:16 pm (UTC)Well, I only read that excuse for an editorial you posted and the article I linked you to on Wikipedia. But if you say that the affair is not over and that things can get better for Aayan Hirsi Ali, aren't you a bit quick to judge? Besides, I don't really think I was defending Verdonk or Balkenende, but pointing out a couple of things that Melanie Phillips seems to have forgotten about in her rush to sympathise for Aayan Hirsi Ali. War against radical Islam or not, I don't like it when people try to manipulate me, wittingly or not. I'm not saying that nobody ever manages to manipulate me, because that's probably false, but at least I try to use my brain, if it were only because it wouldn't make radical Islamists happy.
I am biased against the Dutch.
I think I noticed that before. Maybe it is because there are some ideas that are deeply ingrained in the Dutch mind that are very much at odds with what it required for you as a Catholic (and I may be wrong in this, but if I am, please try to tell me so without crushing my ego. It never killed anyone, baby or not, and it even didn't drive a brave activist out of the country). Dutch people are thouroughly convinced that you should be free to do whatever you like, no matter what religious leaders say, as long as it doesn't hurt anybody else. That's why they approve of legalizing drugs, of euthanasia (at the time of the big debate, I looked at the actual rules for it: to be able to get euthanaized, you need the signature of at least a couple of doctors and the certainty that there is really no hope whatsoever). The theory is that, if something is legalized, at least it happens in a controlled environment, in the open, and everybody can see that nobody was murdered for the inheritance or their life insurance, nobody was fed bad chemicals that damaged their bodies even more and they weren't lured to consume even viler stuff. It's a very pragmatic approach that is thouroughly uncatholic. I know that you're a devout Catholic, and that's admirable. I know that you don't understand the Dutch mind and that you think it's absolutely horrible, but can you please be content that we're all going to Hell and not ruin my day when it's hardly started?
the elementary path of obvious duty
Date: 2007-05-17 07:51 pm (UTC)Oy gevalt!
Date: 2006-05-16 06:49 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-05-16 11:08 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-05-17 05:25 am (UTC)