READ THIS. It is the best comment on Israel's actions in Lebanon I have read.

[fpb]

http://bogieworks.blogs.com/treppenwitz/2006/07/thanks_i_needed.html

Comments

[patchworkmind.livejournal.com]

Marvelous analogy. Excellent piece.

Thanks for posting.

[goreism.livejournal.com]

Aha, so Mr. Peretz was just joshing us in the beginning when he declared emphatically that the war was not against Lebanon.

Of course I find it incredible that the Lebanese government seems to believe it had no obligation to disarm Hezbollah (as did apparently the UN force in Lebanon). Nonetheless, I strongly dislike the analogy, as I dislike all analogies that compare collective entities to individual people. Argue that every civilian—every child who died—is necessary collateral, if you like, since I suppose that's an empirical question that people can disagree upon. Don't imply that they share some sort of collective responsibility, as Alan Dershowitz has apparently attempted to do in a mild form; that logic smacks of Ward Churchillism.

For what it's worth, I mostly agree with Michael Walzer, with a few caveats.

Thank you for posting the link

[(Anonymous)]

I wanted to leave a note thanking you for posting the link to my post 'a difficult lesson'. But while I'm already here I hope you won't mind if I chime in with a few observations on your very erudite discussion... from an Israeli point of view:

First of all, I have to commend Fabio for his well-reasoned synopsis of recent history. While some may not have found it necessary or instructive, it is unhelpful to conduct this kind of discussion without it (as is done every day in the media). Context really is everything.

I must admit to having some trouble getting my head around the position(s) held by the commenter called 'Goreism'. While I can't help but agree that analogies rarely hold up when transferred from individual to group actions/motivations, I can assure you that the central point in my analogy is a bulls-eye.

The reason there has been no peace in the middle east is that no Arab military force (regular or irregular) has ever been allowed to suffer a complete defeat. By 'defeat' I mean the sort where the victor dictates the terms of surrender to the vanquished and there is no room for negotiation. It is humiliating but necessary process.

Another point worth respectfully extending to Goreism is that the liberal voices you quote who have spoken out against collectively punishing Israel are such a tiny minority as to be statistically insignificant. Yes they have spoken, but who has really heard them?

The last point I would make is that in war it is actually cruel to all sides to suggest a 'measured response'. If nobody can achieve a decisive victory the carnage will go on without end, and the loss of Innocent life will be exponentially larger.

In this case Hezbollah has spent every moment since Israel withdrew from Southern Lebanon deliberately entrenching its infrastructure in and around civilian population centers, schools and hospitals. Leaving those rocket launchers and command bunkers intact is not an option if civilians in northern Israel is ever to come out of the bomb shelters... so brace yourself for more 'collateral damage. This is tragic but Israel has to choose between protecting its own citizens or Lebanon's. There is no middle ground available to the decision makers here. Hezbollah made sure of that, banking on Israel's western morals to keep those targets safe. They are about to lose that bet.

Thank you again for posting the link... and for a very civil, intelligent discussion of a terribly complex issue. Well done all around.