Hi! Thanks for your comments. I'm at work and I'm a little busy, so I'll have to try and keep this short.
Suffice it to say that I think there are a lot more reasons for the lack of peace in the Middle East than the fact that no Arab entity has ever suffered total defeat. (Incidentally, is the Arab entity in question here Hezbollah or Lebanon?) The reason I referred to collective punishment is that, pace the analogy, the set of people being humiliated (and having their livelihoods destroyed, and being killed) isn't conterminous with the set of people who apparently need to be humiliated, etc. Analogies often subtly mask the more difficult questions, and I think this one did so too to a certain extent.
It certainly didn't seem like a statistically insignificant minority to me; in fact, as I recall the backlash against the AUT boycott was so widespread from all quarters that they quickly reversed their decision. Even Noam Chomsky, of all people, opposed it--obviously I don't know how to prove this either way, but from my vantage point it seemed like most of the mainstream left also opposed it.
fpb is right that I didn't strongly come out for or against Israel's actions, and that's because for all the talk of striking a "decisive blow" at Hezbollah, I'm undecided as to whether Israel's actions are actually condusive to that end. Matt Yglesias at the American Prospect and Hilary Bok at Obsidian Wings don't think so. My natural pessimism leads me to suspect it's a bit more difficult than many commentators on the editorial pages and television screens of this country are implying.
Wow, I am still a little off balance at the high level of discourse here and the intelligent, civil manner in which ideas are shared. This is a refreshing change from what is going on elsewhere in the blogosphere.
I too am responding from work so I will attempt a concise answer:
You are completely correct in saying that there are more reasons for the lack of peace in the middle east than just the over-simplified answer I gave about defeat vs. cease fire. However, the ability to repeatedly attack without fear of lasting consequences is one of the things that has allowed hostilities against Israel to occur so frequently. In a setting where attacking means risking devastating defeat and the complete loss of power, leaders are likely to be more circumspect about carrying our acts of terrorism/war.
In terms of who is being attacked right now, I would still say it is Hezbollah. Yes, Lebanon is suffering greatly, but they are not the blameless bystanders that the world wants to make them out to be. The government of Lebanon had very clear responsibilities under UN Resolution 1559 to exert full control over all of its land and eliminate any militias. It's not that they did a bad job of this... they never even made the attempt. The UN forces who were supposed to monitor and assist in this endeavor also sat quietly by and watched as Hezbollah spent the entire 6 years since Israel withdrew creating an incredible infrastructure of trenches, bunkers, control center, ammo dumps and rocket launching sites in and around Lebanese towns and villages. The Lebanese government and UN forces also sat silently by while more than 13,000 rockets were imported and deliberately placed in civilians areas. All of this preparation was aimed directly at launching attacks upon Israel (and responding to the inevitable Israeli reaction to such attacks)... yet for 6 years nobody lifted a finger to avert the inevitable tragedy waiting to happen. Now that Hezbollah has actually gone and attacked Israel and continued firing rockets from within civilian areas Lebanon, the UN sounds a bit disingenuous for complaining that Israel is killing civilians along with the bad guys. So of course you are correct, the Lebanese are not the target and are not the ones who need to be humiliated and defeated. But they also helped create the mortal danger in which they find themselves.
As to the issue of the left speaking out against collective punishment of Israel... the British academic boycott is a lone example of efforts to collectively punish Israel having failed. Boycotting Israeli products, refusing to speak out/protest against deliberate attacks against Israeli civilians and the continued use of the UN as an anti-Israel resolution factory are all examples (albeit subtle ones) by which Israel continues to be collectively punished.
I will admit that when fighting a non-governmental terrorist force I don't know exactly what might constitute a "decisive blow". But I do know that not responding with force has never worked. While Israel has never know a true peace, the limited lack of hostilities that have lasted the longest have been in the wake of hugely disproportionate military responses. Jordan - perhaps Israel's closes 'friend' in the region - had allowed the PLO to operate in its midst in the late 60s much the way Hezbollah now operates with impunity within Lebanon. It was only Israel's massive, disproportionate responses against PLO attacks from Jordanian soil that caused Jordan's king Hussein to finally massively crack down on the PLOs 'state within a state'. He slaughtered more than 2000 Palestinians and exiled the rest of the PLO to Lebanon in what came to be known as Black September. Lebanon was forced to expel the PLO a couple of decades later after Israel again provided a massive, disproportionate response. It is sad to say, but it appears that they (the Lebanese government) quickly forget the lessons of that period. What is going on now is Israel doing what Lebanon couldn't/wouldn't.
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Re: Thank you for posting the link
Date: 2006-07-26 08:51 pm (UTC)Suffice it to say that I think there are a lot more reasons for the lack of peace in the Middle East than the fact that no Arab entity has ever suffered total defeat. (Incidentally, is the Arab entity in question here Hezbollah or Lebanon?) The reason I referred to collective punishment is that, pace the analogy, the set of people being humiliated (and having their livelihoods destroyed, and being killed) isn't conterminous with the set of people who apparently need to be humiliated, etc. Analogies often subtly mask the more difficult questions, and I think this one did so too to a certain extent.
It certainly didn't seem like a statistically insignificant minority to me; in fact, as I recall the backlash against the AUT boycott was so widespread from all quarters that they quickly reversed their decision. Even Noam Chomsky, of all people, opposed it--obviously I don't know how to prove this either way, but from my vantage point it seemed like most of the mainstream left also opposed it.
So much for brevity, eh?
Re: Thank you for posting the link
Date: 2006-07-27 06:28 am (UTC)I too am responding from work so I will attempt a concise answer:
You are completely correct in saying that there are more reasons for the lack of peace in the middle east than just the over-simplified answer I gave about defeat vs. cease fire. However, the ability to repeatedly attack without fear of lasting consequences is one of the things that has allowed hostilities against Israel to occur so frequently. In a setting where attacking means risking devastating defeat and the complete loss of power, leaders are likely to be more circumspect about carrying our acts of terrorism/war.
In terms of who is being attacked right now, I would still say it is Hezbollah. Yes, Lebanon is suffering greatly, but they are not the blameless bystanders that the world wants to make them out to be. The government of Lebanon had very clear responsibilities under UN Resolution 1559 to exert full control over all of its land and eliminate any militias. It's not that they did a bad job of this... they never even made the attempt. The UN forces who were supposed to monitor and assist in this endeavor also sat quietly by and watched as Hezbollah spent the entire 6 years since Israel withdrew creating an incredible infrastructure of trenches, bunkers, control center, ammo dumps and rocket launching sites in and around Lebanese towns and villages. The Lebanese government and UN forces also sat silently by while more than 13,000 rockets were imported and deliberately placed in civilians areas. All of this preparation was aimed directly at launching attacks upon Israel (and responding to the inevitable Israeli reaction to such attacks)... yet for 6 years nobody lifted a finger to avert the inevitable tragedy waiting to happen. Now that Hezbollah has actually gone and attacked Israel and continued firing rockets from within civilian areas Lebanon, the UN sounds a bit disingenuous for complaining that Israel is killing civilians along with the bad guys. So of course you are correct, the Lebanese are not the target and are not the ones who need to be humiliated and defeated. But they also helped create the mortal danger in which they find themselves.
As to the issue of the left speaking out against collective punishment of Israel... the British academic boycott is a lone example of efforts to collectively punish Israel having failed. Boycotting Israeli products, refusing to speak out/protest against deliberate attacks against Israeli civilians and the continued use of the UN as an anti-Israel resolution factory are all examples (albeit subtle ones) by which Israel continues to be collectively punished.
I will admit that when fighting a non-governmental terrorist force I don't know exactly what might constitute a "decisive blow". But I do know that not responding with force has never worked. While Israel has never know a true peace, the limited lack of hostilities that have lasted the longest have been in the wake of hugely disproportionate military responses. Jordan - perhaps Israel's closes 'friend' in the region - had allowed the PLO to operate in its midst in the late 60s much the way Hezbollah now operates with impunity within Lebanon. It was only Israel's massive, disproportionate responses against PLO attacks from Jordanian soil that caused Jordan's king Hussein to finally massively crack down on the PLOs 'state within a state'. He slaughtered more than 2000 Palestinians and exiled the rest of the PLO to Lebanon in what came to be known as Black September. Lebanon was forced to expel the PLO a couple of decades later after Israel again provided a massive, disproportionate response. It is sad to say, but it appears that they (the Lebanese government) quickly forget the lessons of that period. What is going on now is Israel doing what Lebanon couldn't/wouldn't.