And some of the FA Mods are men, jerk-off so I'd revise that description.
Nice to see you're still such an aggressive cunt with a bad case of denial. The only liar I see around here has three initials and an ego the size of New Jersey.
This is almost certainly Molly Moon; I recognize the fragrant style and profound arguing capacity. As a rule, I would delete this sort of thing (and she knows perfectly well that her "anonymous" posts have been deleted without an answer at least thirty times so far), but a question has been asked, and, in effect, it is true that I did not say "how" the charming group of individuals concerned were lying filth.
In this context, where I wanted nothing more than to shrug off the smell and feel of rotting garbage, I used a kind of moral shorthand. "Lying" stands for "bad-faith, manipulative, ass-covering, false-faced" - which would have taken more time. And what I mean by that is that the scum concerned have completely failed to address Chthonia's original complaint. I have not read your fic, because I do not read your work; but those who have tell me that it is shamefully and ignorantly racist. In spite of a clear statement to the contrary in the ToU, Heidi and her accomplices have ignored your charming views about the country of Virgil, Dante and Garibaldi, and taken up with enthusiasm the foul-smelling red herring placed under their noses by Narcissa Malfoy, namely the use of real persons' names in fiction. I had never made any objection to your use of my name, for my view was that it only condemned you; but your accomplice Malfoy, desperate for any argument, took it upon herself to distort a fiction I had written in praise of the finest and bravest person I had ever known. Following her script, Heidi and the gang pulled down both stories, pretending to a moral parallelism that did not exist and answering a complaint that nobody had ever made. This makes them the moral equivalent of lying scum, twisting the rules they themselves had invented, because those rules, however foul-smelling they may be in other ways, did not allow them the leeway to let you off for your pathetid and ignorant racism.
As for the sex of FA mods, the only ones I ever had the misfortune of dealing with were female, so, if they have any male accomplices, I did not know.
Actually, that is most definately *not* me. Surprising how often you're wrong, isn't it?
First, I never use the word "cunt" as I find it insulting to women. Secondly, Given the time of the post, I can assure you that I was asleep dreaming of sugar gliders and ballroom dancing.
And just for the record, *This post* marks the sixth time I've posted to your journal. That's all, no more, no less. Everyone else, all your other anonymous friends, find you annoying for their own private reasons, which, if I understand the rumour mill correctly, has a lot to do with the abusive letters to send to Fiction Alley.
Make me out to be the bad guy all you want, Fonzie, but the truth is that you pissed off the fandom all by yourself. I just tend to play with trolls like you in a more public manner than most.
Oh, there is someone else who uses such nice terms, then? Or who has such a brilliant capacity for argument? Or who imagines herself as being one and the same with "the fandom", most of which have the privilege of never having heard of you, and many of whom are friends of mine? Or who so valiantly disguises her real identity while insulting others? Dear me. Well, there are five billion people in this world; the chances of two, three, even four people replicating the same faults and the same arrogance, are fairly high. Incidentally, since you keep records: tell me, how often have you used your LJ to incite people against me? I'll tell you how often I've asked my friends to attack you and your accomplices: never. I can fight my own battles. And, honey, I use my own name.
Insults are never relevant, that is why they are insults. When I described the person who signs herself as Narcissa Malfoy as moral-blackmailing drama queen, I referred to precise events in which she has silenced friends of hers (and enemies of mine) who had dared break step with her. That is a negative description, based on facts. And if you reflect on the fact that neither Moon nor Malfoy use their own names, you will see the point. As for identifying herself, she could hardly do anything else when I had as good as called her out.
Just how many weeks ago was that? Is there someone who is still trawling my LJ for things to be offended at? Then at least keep up to date, and go and be offended at what I just said about Bush and Kerry.
See, this is what I mean... Why ban me and then get upset if I have the gall to ID myself? Its obvious that he enjoys the exchanges with his anonymous fanclub, else he would have turned off anon commenting.
Banning people from posting with their sign in names, but not turning off anon comments only enables him to continue to lie to himself and his little gaggle of "friends" as to who is The Big Bad for this season.
If I enjoyed dealing with your likes, I would not have banned fourteen of you and deleted some sixty messages. You had asked a question; if I had not answered it, you would have gone online and called me a coward - and never mind who is not afraid to appear as himself. And a number of anon postings were harmless and even friendly. I have thought about locking my journal, but I concluded that I was not going to start with a presumption of guilty against anyone who, for one reason or another, does not have an online identity to give. Unlike you, I do not cultivate prejudice and racism.
If you really want nothing to do with Molly Moon, or any of the other people who were involved in the affair (of which I am not one, as I said nothing at all throughout the whole matter until right now), then it would help if you did not post public criticisms of the same.
"Beware Of entrance to a fight; but, being in, Bear't that the opponent may beware of thee." I do not ask for battles, but I do not refuse them once offered, either. Ah, and another passage from the same authority: "Those friends thou hast, and their adoption tried, Grapple them unto thy soul with hoops of steel; But do not dull thy palm with entertainment Of each new-hatch’d, unfledg’d comrade." This about the remark about "little band of friends".
I do not ask for battles, but I do not refuse them once offered, either.
In my experience, refusing battles is often the wisest thing to do. I am aware that I am a temperamental person, and it's frequently best not to know what other people are saying about me, or, if that is an impossibility, to ignore what they are saying. I'm too prone to speaking without thinking, and quite often the only result of many verbal engagements is to make myself look foolish. And some of your posts seem to have the same effect. If someone is irritating to you, the best thing to do is to avoid reading what they say about you, whether it is in their journal or elsewhere.
I am not saying you are wrong: but it is not to the point. These people started a witch-hunt against me. To refuse was not an option. They were filling my own LJ with hate mail. In point of fact, I let a fic by Moon that was grossly defamatory of me and my country stand for months, until someone else was shocked and complained, because I wanted nothing to do with her and felt that she had only condemned herself. And if you notice, what started this last round of mailings was a remark of mine that the row had finally died down, and thank God for that - clearly a few people did not like the idea that it could be allowed to die.
No, I'm under the impression that you keep it going, and I wonder why. Your enthusiastic participation certainly seems like an invitation for further warfare.
Because however many insults I may ignore (I never did anything about Moon's fic, in spite of repeated invitations from her and friends), I will not ignore those thrown at me in my own open space. I would much rather quietly discuss music or comics or religion, but evidently those do not stimulate writers so much as hatred.
But you delete most of the comments that offend you. Doesn't that count as ignoring them? Why ignore some but not others? Why not just ignore all of them?
(I'm not trying to harass you here, really; I genuinely don't understand your position)
I delete those which, in addition to being gross and stupid, have nothing that needs replying to. I do not delete those I respond to, if nothing else because the reader has to see what I was responding to. And sometimes I just let something in to allow someone to condemn her/himself with her/his own words.
You know that much of Polonius's advice was pure bluster, right? And not meant to be taken seriously. He was a magnificently written caricature of a court adviser. A milder form of comic relief than the grave-diggers, to be sure, but not exactly the most authoritative source to quote.
Here we see the problems of education from books. First, a viewpoint that is at best a hypothesis (that everything that Polonius says is meant as bluster, from beginning to end, as though Shakespeare were incapable of depth or vatiation in his comic characters) is quoted as a fact, with no doubt or sign of difficulty. Why? I am not sure, but this sort of thing reminds me of what I used to do when I was younger and was struck by the interpretation of some book or other: I immediately replaced the book interpretation for any independent view, and ended up pushing it too far. Second, there is the formulaic description of the character: "magnificently written caricature of a court adviser" - pure textbook (for why it should be necessary to tell me that Hamlet is magnificently written is not clear; it is neither polemic nor very serious assessment). To the contrary, it has always struck me that Polonius (unlike Osric, who is certainly to be played by the same actor) has several layers. I think that when he dies, it is necessary that we should feel the pathos of his death - that the Queen's "the unseen good old man" should be more than empty sound - and that therefore this speech is by no means on the same level as the nonsense he mouths to the king when he is trying to sound wise. The difference ought to be clear to every ear. On the one hand: "My liege, and madam,--to expostulate/ What majesty should be, what duty is,/ Why day is day, night is night, and time is time./ Were nothing but to waste night, day, and time./ Therefore, since brevity is the soul of wit,/ And tediousness the limbs and outward flourishes,/ I will be brief:--your noble son is mad:/ Mad call I it; for to define true madness,/ What is't but to be nothing else but mad?" This, and lots more like this, is pretty nearly nonsense; I say pretty nearly, because even here Polonius manages one perfectly sensible statement - "brevity is the sould of wit" - that has passed into the stock of English proverbs. On the other hand: "Look thou character. Give thy thoughts no tongue,/ Nor any unproportion'd thought his act./ Be thou familiar, but by no means vulgar./ Those friends thou hast, and their adoption tried,/ Grapple them unto thy soul with hoops of steel;/ But do not dull thy palm with entertainment/ Of each new-hatch'd, unfledg'd comrade. Beware/ Of entrance to a quarrel; but, being in,/ Bear't that the opposed may beware of thee./ Give every man thine ear, but few thy voice:/ Take each man's censure, but reserve thy judgment./ Costly thy habit as thy purse can buy, But not express'd in fancy; rich, not gaudy:/ For the apparel oft proclaims the man;/ And they in France of the best rank and station/ Are most select and generous chief in that./ Neither a borrower nor a lender be:/ For loan oft loses both itself and friend;/ And borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry./ This above all,--to thine own self be true;/ And it must follow, as the night the day,/ Thou canst not then be false to any man." What is wrong, silly, or blustering, with any of this? It is all good, sound, epigrammatically simple, proverb-like fatherly advice, expressed, except for a little falling-off in the wandering about noble Frenchmen, with a pregnant minimum of words. If Polonius had been able to speak to the King as he spoke to his son, he would have been a counselor indeed. And even the fact that after giving all this advice he nevertheless feels the need to send a spy after Laertes is not altogether despicable: he is clear to Voltimand - in spite of all his chatter - that he must not make Laertes sound altogether bad, but only try to see whether he has been kicking over the traces a bit. "Pure bluster?" Hardly, if you listen to the actual sound and flow of the words and do not insist on applying pre-conceived views to everything.
If by this you refer to the complaint about your own fic and the character Debbie Wallace, I'm afraid that that isn't accurate. There have been a large number of complaints made by many different people (not all of whom are known to you, I think) about the use of a real person's name and character in a fic without that person's permission, all of which have hitherto been ignored by FA because FA believed that your fic did not violate FA rules. In light of recent events, they're reconsidering that stance. Molly's fic is a catalyst, but they're certainly not taking down your fic so that they can also take down hers without a complaint from her.
As for whether or not Molly's fic is racist towards Italians, she's drawing on a well-known stereotype for the purpose of parody; if this makes her fic racist, should we be arresting the creators of Analyze This, or any spoof of the Godfather, or every other person who's ever made fun of the Mafia stereotype?
Yes, they should. And she is applying it to me. If you think that is fair, I do not think we should have anything to do with each other any more. She has called me a mafioso, and you are saying she had a right to.
If we ban stereotypes of the Mafia, we should also go on and ban stereotypes of Jews, which then immediately kicks out Shakespeare's Merchant of Venice for its hideous portrayal of Jews just to start with. If we ban every parody of everything that could hurt of offend, the majority of the literary canon will be annihilated. Avoid stereotypes, disclaim them, certainly; ban them, no. Besides, what she was saying about Italians was a parody, and not intended to be taken seriously on any level; no one believes for a minute that you or any other Italian is a mafioso, just as everyone knows that not all Jews are backstabbing greedy bloody-minded bastards even though they're often portrayed as such, and everyone knows not all Americans are militant maniacs from Texas with enough drawl to drown a cat even though we're often portrayed as such. I was not saying that she had a right to call you a mafioso, just trying to make a point about parodies and also say that her portrayal in the story was in no way shape or form intented to be taken seriously.
Ummm that's a bit broad handed. There are quite a few mods on FA and I doubt you've had run ins with all of them, and it's hardly fair to denounce a whole group because you don't like a few.
As for your fic . . . Surely you can see how allowing people to use the names of real people in fanfiction without permission can lead to problems (though god alone knows how a ban on this would be enforcable).
Real names can be a hazard if someone feels you are having something awful occure to that person in the fic, and one person's satire or noble use is another's defamation of character.
personally, I was rather surprised to see FA let it slide in the first place *shrug*
I don't think it was a witch hunt against you . . . I think the only fair thing to do was to take both fics down because both fics had complaints against them for the same reason, forcing FA to re-evaluate a stance that had never been an issue before.
Granted I don't your background with anyone here or you, for that matter (outside of the fact that I disagreed strongly with your intepretation of the friendship between Remus, James, Peter, and Sirius, but that's beside the point)
Anyway, I'm saying this because my experiences with the mods have always been ones of fairness and willingness to listen to my side and opinion, so long as I was polite about it.
I think your comment above is unfair as you seem to have only issues with certain people, and the mods as a whole are taking on a very difficult and thankless job in trying to moderate a place as huge as FA.
Well, my experience with the mods has consistently been crappy. And as for the rest, you do not know the facts, but I am tired of repeating myself. The complaint was about racism in Moon's fic, and it was only in a desperate attempt to distract attention from their brutal and indefensbel stereotyping that Moon and friends even brought up the matter of real names. The issue was racism, and the mods carefully avoided dealing with it; which is typical of the hypocrisy, partisanship and downright lying that I have consistently encountered from them.
Ah well, the main thing I saw being addressed with the names, which to me is a bigger deal and where the personal offense can come from.
You even apply as much when you say to Ashfea that she called you mafioso, which yeah, if someone called me some of the things you can call my heritage, I'd be not to happy either.
I thought there was stereotyping yes, but not anything that was racism, but I know that can also be a personal judgement call, just as sexism can.
As for not knowing what was going on, I meant between you and the mods. I followed the issue with the fics because I was curious to see where it would go since I used the name of a public figure in a fic of mine.
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timeasmymeasure
no subject
Date: 2004-10-05 05:44 am (UTC)And some of the FA Mods are men, jerk-off so I'd revise that description.
Nice to see you're still such an aggressive cunt with a bad case of denial. The only liar I see around here has three initials and an ego the size of New Jersey.
no subject
Date: 2004-10-05 05:59 am (UTC)In this context, where I wanted nothing more than to shrug off the smell and feel of rotting garbage, I used a kind of moral shorthand. "Lying" stands for "bad-faith, manipulative, ass-covering, false-faced" - which would have taken more time. And what I mean by that is that the scum concerned have completely failed to address Chthonia's original complaint. I have not read your fic, because I do not read your work; but those who have tell me that it is shamefully and ignorantly racist. In spite of a clear statement to the contrary in the ToU, Heidi and her accomplices have ignored your charming views about the country of Virgil, Dante and Garibaldi, and taken up with enthusiasm the foul-smelling red herring placed under their noses by Narcissa Malfoy, namely the use of real persons' names in fiction. I had never made any objection to your use of my name, for my view was that it only condemned you; but your accomplice Malfoy, desperate for any argument, took it upon herself to distort a fiction I had written in praise of the finest and bravest person I had ever known. Following her script, Heidi and the gang pulled down both stories, pretending to a moral parallelism that did not exist and answering a complaint that nobody had ever made. This makes them the moral equivalent of lying scum, twisting the rules they themselves had invented, because those rules, however foul-smelling they may be in other ways, did not allow them the leeway to let you off for your pathetid and ignorant racism.
As for the sex of FA mods, the only ones I ever had the misfortune of dealing with were female, so, if they have any male accomplices, I did not know.
no subject
Date: 2004-10-05 06:20 am (UTC)First, I never use the word "cunt" as I find it insulting to women. Secondly, Given the time of the post, I can assure you that I was asleep dreaming of sugar gliders and ballroom dancing.
And just for the record, *This post* marks the sixth time I've posted to your journal. That's all, no more, no less. Everyone else, all your other anonymous friends, find you annoying for their own private reasons, which, if I understand the rumour mill correctly, has a lot to do with the abusive letters to send to Fiction Alley.
Make me out to be the bad guy all you want, Fonzie, but the truth is that you pissed off the fandom all by yourself. I just tend to play with trolls like you in a more public manner than most.
no subject
Date: 2004-10-05 06:34 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-05 06:37 am (UTC)How, precisely, is that a relevant insult? She did identify herself.
no subject
Date: 2004-10-05 06:42 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-05 06:45 am (UTC)PS - I know who the first poster is, I think, and its not me. Will accept bribes to reveal.
no subject
Date: 2004-10-05 06:47 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-17 03:15 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-17 04:02 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-05 06:42 am (UTC)Banning people from posting with their sign in names, but not turning off anon comments only enables him to continue to lie to himself and his little gaggle of "friends" as to who is The Big Bad for this season.
no subject
Date: 2004-10-05 06:45 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-05 07:09 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-05 07:26 am (UTC)Of entrance to a fight; but, being in,
Bear't that the opponent may beware of thee."
I do not ask for battles, but I do not refuse them once offered, either.
Ah, and another passage from the same authority:
"Those friends thou hast, and their adoption tried,
Grapple them unto thy soul with hoops of steel;
But do not dull thy palm with entertainment
Of each new-hatch’d, unfledg’d comrade."
This about the remark about "little band of friends".
no subject
Date: 2004-10-05 07:38 am (UTC)In my experience, refusing battles is often the wisest thing to do. I am aware that I am a temperamental person, and it's frequently best not to know what other people are saying about me, or, if that is an impossibility, to ignore what they are saying. I'm too prone to speaking without thinking, and quite often the only result of many verbal engagements is to make myself look foolish. And some of your posts seem to have the same effect. If someone is irritating to you, the best thing to do is to avoid reading what they say about you, whether it is in their journal or elsewhere.
no subject
Date: 2004-10-05 07:42 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-05 07:57 am (UTC)By that, do you mean this post?
no subject
Date: 2004-10-05 08:14 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-05 08:04 am (UTC)But by posting negative posts about these people, over and over, you do ask for battles! What else are such entries supposed to accomplish?
(not the same anonymous person as any of the above, fyi)
no subject
Date: 2004-10-05 08:19 am (UTC)Excuse me, you are perhaps under the impression that I started it?
no subject
Date: 2004-10-05 10:13 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-05 02:43 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-22 02:32 pm (UTC)(I'm not trying to harass you here, really; I genuinely don't understand your position)
no subject
Date: 2004-10-22 02:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-05 05:18 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-05 10:07 pm (UTC)To the contrary, it has always struck me that Polonius (unlike Osric, who is certainly to be played by the same actor) has several layers. I think that when he dies, it is necessary that we should feel the pathos of his death - that the Queen's "the unseen good old man" should be more than empty sound - and that therefore this speech is by no means on the same level as the nonsense he mouths to the king when he is trying to sound wise. The difference ought to be clear to every ear. On the one hand: "My liege, and madam,--to expostulate/ What majesty should be, what duty is,/ Why day is day, night is night, and time is time./ Were nothing but to waste night, day, and time./ Therefore, since brevity is the soul of wit,/ And tediousness the limbs and outward flourishes,/ I will be brief:--your noble son is mad:/ Mad call I it; for to define true madness,/ What is't but to be nothing else but mad?" This, and lots more like this, is pretty nearly nonsense; I say pretty nearly, because even here Polonius manages one perfectly sensible statement - "brevity is the sould of wit" - that has passed into the stock of English proverbs. On the other hand: "Look thou character. Give thy thoughts no tongue,/ Nor any unproportion'd thought his act./ Be thou familiar, but by no means vulgar./ Those friends thou hast, and their adoption tried,/ Grapple them unto thy soul with hoops of steel;/ But do not dull thy palm with entertainment/ Of each new-hatch'd, unfledg'd comrade. Beware/ Of entrance to a quarrel; but, being in,/ Bear't that the opposed may beware of thee./ Give every man thine ear, but few thy voice:/ Take each man's censure, but reserve thy judgment./ Costly thy habit as thy purse can buy,
But not express'd in fancy; rich, not gaudy:/ For the apparel oft proclaims the man;/ And they in France of the best rank and station/ Are most select and generous chief in that./ Neither a borrower nor a lender be:/ For loan oft loses both itself and friend;/ And borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry./ This above all,--to thine own self be true;/ And it must follow, as the night the day,/ Thou canst not then be false to any man." What is wrong, silly, or blustering, with any of this? It is all good, sound, epigrammatically simple, proverb-like fatherly advice, expressed, except for a little falling-off in the wandering about noble Frenchmen, with a pregnant minimum of words. If Polonius had been able to speak to the King as he spoke to his son, he would have been a counselor indeed. And even the fact that after giving all this advice he nevertheless feels the need to send a spy after Laertes is not altogether despicable: he is clear to Voltimand - in spite of all his chatter - that he must not make Laertes sound altogether bad, but only try to see whether he has been kicking over the traces a bit. "Pure bluster?" Hardly, if you listen to the actual sound and flow of the words and do not insist on applying pre-conceived views to everything.
no subject
Date: 2004-10-05 08:15 am (UTC)If by this you refer to the complaint about your own fic and the character Debbie Wallace, I'm afraid that that isn't accurate. There have been a large number of complaints made by many different people (not all of whom are known to you, I think) about the use of a real person's name and character in a fic without that person's permission, all of which have hitherto been ignored by FA because FA believed that your fic did not violate FA rules. In light of recent events, they're reconsidering that stance. Molly's fic is a catalyst, but they're certainly not taking down your fic so that they can also take down hers without a complaint from her.
As for whether or not Molly's fic is racist towards Italians, she's drawing on a well-known stereotype for the purpose of parody; if this makes her fic racist, should we be arresting the creators of Analyze This, or any spoof of the Godfather, or every other person who's ever made fun of the Mafia stereotype?
no subject
Date: 2004-10-05 08:20 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-05 10:04 am (UTC)But no, I don't condone the story.
no subject
Date: 2004-10-05 09:59 am (UTC)As for your fic . . . Surely you can see how allowing people to use the names of real people in fanfiction without permission can lead to problems
(though god alone knows how a ban on this would be enforcable).
Real names can be a hazard if someone feels you are having something awful occure to that person in the fic, and one person's satire or noble use is another's defamation of character.
personally, I was rather surprised to see FA let it slide in the first place *shrug*
I don't think it was a witch hunt against you . . .
I think the only fair thing to do was to take both fics down because both fics had complaints against them for the same reason, forcing FA to re-evaluate a stance that had never been an issue before.
Granted I don't your background with anyone here or you, for that matter (outside of the fact that I disagreed strongly with your intepretation of the friendship between Remus, James, Peter, and Sirius, but that's beside the point)
Anyway, I'm saying this because my experiences with the mods have always been ones of fairness and willingness to listen to my side and opinion, so long as I was polite about it.
I think your comment above is unfair as you seem to have only issues with certain people, and the mods as a whole are taking on a very difficult and thankless job in trying to moderate a place as huge as FA.
no subject
Date: 2004-10-05 10:18 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-05 10:57 am (UTC)You even apply as much when you say to Ashfea that she called you mafioso, which yeah, if someone called me some of the things you can call my heritage, I'd be not to happy either.
I thought there was stereotyping yes, but not anything that was racism, but I know that can also be a personal judgement call, just as sexism can.
As for not knowing what was going on, I meant between you and the mods. I followed the issue with the fics because I was curious to see where it would go since I used the name of a public figure in a fic of mine.