for [profile] polyphonia: better than the fat of rams

May. 8th, 2007 07:38 am
fpb: (Default)
[personal profile] fpb
And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

Catholic traditionalists are notoriously vocal creatures, and as such are rather overrepresented among bloggers. To hear some bloggers, there is nothing wrong with the Church that could not be resolved by the abolition of the modern Roman missal and the return to Latin and the Tridentine Mass.

They have a certain amount of justification. The (comparatively) new Roman ritual was brought in in a way that was both aggressive and poorly executed. Ecumenical Councils of the Church are as a rule either preceded or followed, or both, by periods of instability, reckless experimentation, and schism. To people who knew church history, the turmoil that followed the Second Vatican Council would have been neither unexpected nor surprising; but the fact is that it took place in a period in which the intoxication of historicism, the notion that the world was changing in every way and that change was good in itself, was at its height. Even among educated clergymen, who should have understood something of church history, the mania for change had taken hold. And so the new ritual was introduced in the sixties in a sudden, bewildering way, accompanied with a virtually complete prohibition of the previous form of Mass which seemed to tell the faithful that the way in which they and their fathers had prayed and received the Eucharist was illegitimate and inferior. It was taken as obligatory to translate the Mass in the vernacular (although the Council had ordered the exact opposite) and the translations were frequently inadequate. The English version was particularly bad. And since then, even though successive Popes have tried to encourage the use of the old rite, a great many Bishops have as good as forbidden it in their dioceses.

In truth, though, the issue has been blown far beyond its real value. It is not only the case that it has attracted all the victims of that particular pathology, the dreamers of golden ages that never existed - people who are unfortunately drawn to the Catholic Church in any case, because of its enormous and resonant antiquity; worse, it has become the focus of a peculiarly subversive rhetoric whose worst excesses are easily comparable to those of the late unlamented Marcel Lefebvre. Natural malcontents identify the crazed abuse of the ritual carried out - especially in the Americas - by foolish ecclesiastics, with the ritual itself; while it should be clear that those who cut and paste the Mass according to their whim, introduce "liturgical dancers", ordinary bread instead of unleavened hosts, and so on and so forth, are acting not according to the new ritual, but against it. The truth is that these people would never be satisfied anywhere; I debated them online, and I think I can say that their problem has no solution. And certainly not that of changing the Liturgy. They would soon be as discontented with the Tridentine Rite as they are with the current one.

It goes without saying that such people reinforce the very resistance they want to break down. They are, in effect, the mirror image of the very modernist zealots who, entrenched in the diocesan bureaucracy, make it difficult or impossible to celebrate one Tridentine Mass anywhere. And the conflict has become, on both sides, unbelievably bitter.

Now, the rumour has spread - don't ask me how or why - that, in the absence of progress at a diocesan level, Pope Benedict is to issue a motu proprio - an edict - ordering the free celebration of the Tridentine Mass in more or less any parish that wishes to do so, in despite of the will of the local Bishop.

This is a strange story on the face of it. The Vatican takes the role of Bishops very seriously; each of them is the successor of the Apostles in his own diocese, and it is only in rare and serious cases that the Vatican interferes even with the worst-managed dioceses. (The Apostles, after all, included Judas.) Such a step can only mean that the Pope is exasperated with mass episcopal resistance to the old ritual; and that he regards the matter as important enough to risk a conflict within the Church.

So there would be reasons to be careful even of the best authenticated rumours. The Vatican is a place of rumours, eighty per cent of which never come true; and this one is unlikelier than many. (Though not than those which Ruth Gledhill of the Times insists on circulating!) However, the bloggers and the Press have all shown all the prudence of a lemming on drugs. For months now, the motu proprio has been confidently predicted within a week or two, and the continuous disappointment has never stopped either the fertility or the confidence of the predictions.

Now if I were the Pope, and if I were meditating such a grave step as an edict depriving the Bishops of their power to decide on a serious matter, I think this attitude would have made me stop and think even further. The disrespect for the modern ritual, which is after all a ritual of celebration of the Mass mandated by the Church of Rome, show a spirit which may be highly contemporary and up-to-date, but is not very Catholic. To be Catholic means basically to accept the teachings of 2000 years, even where you do not necessarily understand their point or even agree with them. And the obsession with the Tridentine Mass shows three ugly features: a focus on the inessential, a tendency to believe historical myths, and a tendency to make all faults into one. For instance, I have lost count of the number of people who, without having any experience of Pope Paul VI's pontificate, treat him as a heretic for imposing the change - forgetting the heroic struggle fought by that unhappy man, almost alone, against the world, the flesh and the Devil, in the matter of sexual ethics and abortion, from Humanae Vitae (1968) to the day of his death. When one considers the desolate solitude in which his defence of Church teachings placed him, and the incredible degree of hatred and vilification to which he was exposed, I very much doubt whether a single one of our heroic traditionalists would have the guts and endurance to stand it. As for failing to distinguish between different faults, Cardinal Mahoney of Los Angeles is by far the worst offender in liturgical matters; so a certain kind of people are astonished when he fearlessly preaches against abortion. Because of course, if you promote bad liturgy, you must also be a coward in other matters, right? Wrong. And just as a man may be a rotten liturgist but still loyal to the truth in other matters, so, conversely, even if every last liturgical abuse were suppressed, faults without number would still be present in the Church. As for focussing on the inessential, some people speak as though the poverty of the new Mass' English translation did anything to negate its sacredness. But the Lord never said: take and have an impressive aesthetic experience; He said, take, eat, this is My Body. Tell me, what is so hard to understand about "Take, eat; this is My Body" and "Take, drink: This is My Blood" - the words of Consecration throughout the world?

Don't get me wrong. I would love to see the Tridentine rite back. Indeed, I love to see a variety of rites throughout the Church, and I would like to see even more - such as an Anglican Rite preserving as much of the beautiful langauge of the Book of Common Prayer as can be used without heresy. I think it is wonderful that, as a Catholic, you can go to a Byzantine parish and see the famous ritual of St.John Chrisostomos; or to a Syrian parish; and that in all of these a valid offering is given. But the modern Mass, for all its faults, is a true Mass, mandated by the authority to which we Catholics must, in matters of faith and morality, defer. The story says that King Saul thought he had good reason for ignoring the order of the Lord; and, what is more, he was a King, crowned by God Himself - which is more than we can say for any of us. And yet, Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

Date: 2007-05-08 07:31 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mercyorbemoaned.livejournal.com
Excesses like consecration by puppet and male liturgical belly dance are aesthetic nightmares, but that's not the point. The only reason early 20th century holy cards don't make us nauseous is they're better than what we have now. The idea that this is somehow about aesthetics is all over the Catholic blogosphere, which is a good indication of how convert-heavy that blogosphere is. The two hundred years previous to Vatican II produced just as many aesthetic horrorshows as we've had since. The difference is that a saccarhine print of the Mother of God or our Lord, or a grotesque Spanish statue of a dolllike saint covered in gore, or a simpering child's prayerbook, while very very far from providing uplifting aesthetic experiences are still reverent. Not being a convert and being the product of American immigrant Catholicism I have seen plenty cheesy and lame sacramentals, but they are reverent. Their cheesiness and lameness are the result of poverty and poor education. The people who produced them were doing their best. That is NOT the truth of the American Church today and anyone who says that it is is lying to themselves. You are not giving your best to the Church when you dress the choir in polyester because you know no one can be bothered to iron. Felt banners? Not your best. I don't even want to start with the music. IT'S INCREDIBLY IRREVERENT.


Date: 2007-05-08 07:35 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fpb.livejournal.com
Not that I disagree with anything you said, but none of this has to do with the Ritual of the Mass mandated from Rome. If you had mentioned the bad translation, it would have been more to the point.

Date: 2007-05-08 07:39 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mercyorbemoaned.livejournal.com
No, it has to do with your uncharitable characterization of people's pain. Trust me, if you had to go to Mass every week and sing Eagle's Wings you'd be bitching just like we do.

Date: 2007-05-08 07:49 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fpb.livejournal.com
Last year I was so outraged by the omily during the Feast of Christ the King before Advent, that I got up and walked out of the church. I genuinely felt that I had seen the Abomination of Desolation "standing where it ought not, and that all those who were in Jerusalem must fly for the hills". But what outraged me was not liturgical or other sloppiness; it was a teaching right out of the worst of the Lefebvrites, with democracy as a conspiracy of demonic forces and monarchy as the only form of government blessed by God (Henry VIII? Gustavus Vasa? Philip of Hesse? Ivan IV Grozny?). The Devil's house, as well as that of the Father, has many mansions. As for complaints about bad music and worse attendees, I have plenty. It is just that I do not take upon myself, in the Donatist, Lollard and Protestant tradition, to say that, because these are no saints, therefore this is no Church.

Date: 2007-05-08 07:50 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mercyorbemoaned.livejournal.com
Who's saying that? Rod Dreher? He left.

Date: 2007-05-08 07:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dirigibletrance.livejournal.com
As I protestant myself, I have to disagree with your characterization of us there. We do not say "Because these are no saints, therefore this is no Church." We place greater emphasis on the living out and carrying out of Jesus's teachings, and walking daily in obedience to him through our actions, rather than through rituals.

However, simply because we demand that believers strive for perfection does not mean that we condemn them when they do not attain it. It is the striving that matters. Protestants recognize that people are human, they make mistakes. No believer's obedience is flawless, not in this earthly tent that we dwell in now, anyway.

Date: 2007-05-08 07:45 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mercyorbemoaned.livejournal.com
After all, easily 85% of the Masses I have attended in my life have been celebrated by a priest whose native language was Tagalog and was totally incomprehensible so the quality of the translation, to me, is moot.

Date: 2007-05-08 07:38 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mercyorbemoaned.livejournal.com
Did I misspell reverent? Reverent. Reverant. You tell me.

Argh I must continue. The NO is BAD NEWS, and it's not just America, it's not any better in any of the three other countries I've experienced it in. I went to my first SSPX service in Singapore, and you know what? NOT AESTHICALLY IMPRESSIVE. The Singapore Jesuits had the SSPX beat all hollow on the aesthetic front. But who showed reverence to the Mother of God? Not the Jesuits. Who had the small children experience the awe they ought? Not the Jesuits. The NO, no matter where it is, who's celebrating it, and how professional the music is, produces a bad attitude. It produces a folksy, comfortable feeling where you should be feeling the weight of your sin, and it produces a clubby, aren't I lucky to be with these fine people, community-focus when you should be focused on the Lord. These are the central problems with the NO, not the felt, although the felt is bad.

Date: 2007-05-08 07:51 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fpb.livejournal.com
I simply do not recognize the description. And I am sorry, if it comes to personal experience, I have to inform you that mine is not worth any less than yours. And remember that obedience is not a great virtue when obedience suits your own taste. It is when you have to do something you do not like, that it means something.

Date: 2007-05-08 07:53 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mercyorbemoaned.livejournal.com
Hey, you're the one who walked, not me. I have sat and gritted my teeth through a lot worse than "my divine right of kings is pastede on yay."

Date: 2007-05-08 07:55 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fpb.livejournal.com
If you have sat through outright heresy and the abuse of religion like that, then I cannot understand it. There are limits, and heresy is mine. There is a difference between sitting through something that displeases your sense of reverence, and sitting and hearing the doctrine of the Church perverted for the worst political reasons.

Date: 2007-05-08 07:58 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mercyorbemoaned.livejournal.com
OK, consecration by puppet, mere aesthetic difference; some priest pulls exactly the same nonsense that priests have pulled since day one, and you get to leave with a clear conscience? I gotta say though being able to *understand* what the priest is saying is such unfamilar territory for me that I don't usually have my heresy detector on. Maybe you're more in practice.

Date: 2007-05-08 08:11 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fpb.livejournal.com
No, indeed. Please do not put words in my mouth. I have had the good fortune never to attend one of the real liturgical horrors I hear about; from what I hear, they are more common in Germany and the Americas (I hear genuinely ghastly tales from Brazil as well as the US) than anywhere else, and I can say that the average Italian and English parish church knows nothing of it. My father could not understand why a decree such as Ecclesia de Eucharestia was even necessary, and my mother could not believe it when I told her about liturgical dancers and showed her some photos of Mahoney in action. And if had seen such things, you could not have kept me in that particular parish with a drag rope and an engine. But the evils I have seen are different, and they most often have nothing to do with liturgy. Except, of course, for the horrible hymns, which have made it to England - Here I am Lord, is it I, Lord? and one ghastly item that begins We are one in the Spirit, we are one in the Lord and promises to guard each man's pride, as if pride were a virtue. But not all contemporary hymns are bad. (And I should know - 8-) I have written one or two myself - http://fpb.livejournal.com/125215.html.)

Date: 2007-05-08 12:16 pm (UTC)
guarani: (Default)
From: [personal profile] guarani
(I hear genuinely ghastly tales from Brazil as well as the US)

I've seen a priest (formerly a dancer) with make-up and costumes, dancing inside his church during Mass in Brazil. Fortunately for me, I saw him on TV, so it was not the real thing. Anyway, that priest received an admonition, and I think he was preventing from celebrating Mass.

Date: 2007-05-08 12:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fpb.livejournal.com
Urrrrkk!!
Now I know how St.John felt when, according to Eusebius, he told his followres to leave a particular house. The heretic Cerinthus was inside, and the Saint felt that God might destroy the place any minute.

Date: 2007-05-08 12:34 pm (UTC)
guarani: (Default)
From: [personal profile] guarani
It was a dreary experience on a 14" screen...

Date: 2007-05-09 09:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mercyorbemoaned.livejournal.com
Well I couldn't walk out of Puppet Mass cause I was 11. Another major problem I have with the anti-traditionalist brigade is they seem to forget that not everyone is a single childless adult.

Date: 2007-05-08 01:29 pm (UTC)
filialucis: (Default)
From: [personal profile] filialucis
"The NO, no matter where it is, who's celebrating it, and how professional the music is, produces a bad attitude. It produces a folksy, comfortable feeling where you should be feeling the weight of your sin, and it produces a clubby, aren't I lucky to be with these fine people, community-focus when you should be focused on the Lord."

I'm sorry, but this is the kind of generalisation that gives the traditionalists a bad name because it's so outrageously sweeping that it bears no relationship to reality. Regardless of the possibility of liturgical abuses in the NO (and, incidentally, why does everyone seem to be so certain that the Tridentine Mass would be immune to abuses by its very definition?), the fact of liturgical practice which I observe every Sunday here in central Europe is that an NO Mass, even in the vernacular, is an exceedingly reverent one when it's done right. There isn't a shred of folksiness or clubby community focus about the Mass I attend, and I'd defy anyone to point out a congregation anywhere that's more attentive and focused on what's going on up at the altar. The fact that it's a low altar and that people subsequently line up to receive the Eucharist standing and in the hand has nothing to say to anything. I'm sorry, but just assuming a specific position doesn't automatically generate a right or wrong attitude; if the inner attitude isn't there to start with, the outward position is meaningless. Though of course this is a premise that doesn't sit well with the average disgruntled traditionalist blogger (and I'm speaking in general terms here; this is not directed at you personally).

Date: 2007-05-08 05:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] izhilzha.livejournal.com
just assuming a specific position doesn't automatically generate a right or wrong attitude; if the inner attitude isn't there to start with

Absolutely true. I'm not even Catholic (really shouldn't be jumping in here, should I?), and have worshiped in Protestant services that would doubtless scare or annoy or intimidate many people who are used to older liturgies. I have found both the liturgical service (I attended an Anglican church during university) and the freer forms of worship to be deeply focused on our Lord. Not always, and either can be abused, but as you say--the inner attitude is the most important.

Date: 2007-05-08 08:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fpb.livejournal.com
To be honest, and I hope this does not offend you, I think you take the matter much too lightly. It sounds too much as though "everything goes as long as it is done with a reverent tone." Which is not acceptable to us.

Date: 2007-05-08 08:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] izhilzha.livejournal.com
LOL. You don't usually mind offending people; why start now? ;-)

I told you I'm not Catholic. Because of that, I don't think I *should* be too serious about this--it's not my place to judge between the traditional and non-traditional services of a denomination to which I do not belong.

I absolutely believe that, as St. Paul says, "everything should be done decently and in order." That doesn't mean that one has to do it the exact same way that a specific order of the Church has done it, necessarily. I don't expect you to agree with me on this, because you do sound like a traditionalist, but I believe that there has to be a place where those who follow Christ understand the difference between obeying Him and His Word and following rules established by men. (As I said, I don't expect you to agree with this; as a Catholic, I understand you have a much broader view of what counts as having been directly communicated to the Church by God.)

Date: 2007-05-09 09:23 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mercyorbemoaned.livejournal.com
why does everyone seem to be so certain that the Tridentine Mass would be immune to abuses by its very definition?

This is the kind of generalisation that makes anti-traditionalists sound like they live in cloud-cuckoo land. I would totally read an alternative universe novel that gave a plausible account of the last 40 years that ended up with male liturgical bellydance iat a Tridentine, though.

But you know what? Let's all make nice. You extend some charity to us poor suffering Americans and we'll extend the benefit of the doubt to your assertion that this mythical creature, the reverent NO, actually exists. You take some time to reflect on the fact that nothing in our experience would lead us to ever believe that on our own, though, ok?

Date: 2007-05-10 01:06 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fpb.livejournal.com
I wish to remind you that this is my blog. I do not know what is the matter with you tonight, but your statements come very close to being offensive and insulting. You have no right to say to Eva and to me that our experiences of the NO Mass are "mythical" only because they do not agree with yours. And if you want to know where to find a cranky, aggressive, uncomprehending, absolutist and extremist traditionalist of the kind I described, then I suggest that the present comments are a good place to start. You will never convince us that American Trads are decent people this way - "Who? Me? I'm the sweetest soandso who ever lived, and I'll cover with insults anyone who disagrees". You know, I like you quite a bit, but that does not mean that I will not consider the Scissors of Doom if you do not start treating others - including, oh, you know, the guy who runs the blog - with more respect. All your comments tonight are unacceptable in tone and attitude; and I hope that you will find in yourself to moderate your language in the future, and avoid forcing me into action.

Date: 2007-05-10 01:42 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mercyorbemoaned.livejournal.com
I am willing to have rancorous discussions like this in the real world; I always forget that people post the most incredibly offensive stuff on their blogs and expect total sweetness and light in response. Yeah, it's your blog, but you're never going to hear from people who disagree with you if you play by those rules. Bye.

Date: 2007-05-10 02:00 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fpb.livejournal.com
What was "incredibly offensive"? As everyone but you realized, I went out of my way to explain the background to the controversy, and, as everyone but you realized, I stated plainly that I have considerable sympathy with traditionalists. However, you will have either total flattering bootlicking agreement or nothing. Plus, you seem to think that "rancorous" is a compliment. I don't know where you got that idea, but it is not in the real world you like to talk about. In the real world, someone would already have broken something on your head. And let me tell you something else: you seem sadly neglectful of the habit of self-criticism that ought to come with the sacrament of Confession.

Date: 2007-05-09 09:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mercyorbemoaned.livejournal.com
Maybe a better way to phrase the problem with the NO is that "when it's done right" is so critical. This is dumb. Humans do stuff wrong most of the time. Kneeling to receive, ad orientem, keeping women out of the sanctuary, etc etc etc mean that you can flub a lot of other stuff and you still have something that is clearly about God and not about the community, the ego of the presider, environmentalism, or how great we all are for having made it to Mass. In order to really do a number on the Tridentine, you have to have the intention to commit blasphemy. In order to have a reverent NO, you have to have the intention to worship God. Let's face it: that's not why most people go to church and it's never gonna be until the end of the world. The NO is fragile; the Tridentine is strong. The Tridentine works with human nature.

Your description of your church-attending experiences and what I've experienced myself remind me of that famous statement of Flannery O'Conner's that the Protestant churches are full of good people, but the Catholic Church is full of people who accept what She teaches. An NO full of good people can be all the things you say. I'm not a good person. I need the Tridentine.

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