IN the matter of obsession, arrogance and intolerance...

[fpb]

...read this debate thread and tell me which side comes closer to the description: http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/590381/witchfinder-balls.thtml#comments

Comments

[curia-regis.livejournal.com]

I only got part of the way down the page before my brain started hurting.

I have to love random attack on the Australian though. Especially since he strongly implied that he didn't vote for Labour. *facepalm*

[stigandnasty919.livejournal.com]

Such a difficult topic for me to be even remotely logical about. But I would say that atheism is not necessary to propose a secular education system so i'm not sure this really differentiates between atheists and believers.

On the issue contained in the discussion. I have a real problem here. I'm torn between my instinct that if people want to educate kids their way, they should, within limits, be allowed to and my experience of a community divided by their education system.

I'm a product of the school system of Northern Ireland where my home town of Omagh had six secondary schools. Separate Catholic Grammar Schools for boys and girls and a single state Grammar school which was, by default, an almost exclusively protestant school. There was then a matching set of Secondary Modern schools and a plethora of primary schools divided on religious grounds. This pattern, which was matched throughout the rest of the province was, in my opinion, one of the main reasons for the unreasoned, but often rationalised, hatred between the communities, the residue of which continues to this day. The communities did not mix, and the division of the schools was tyhe first step in a kind of agreed aparthait system that was totally foolish and all encompasing - there were protestant newsagents and catholic newsagents - which would stock different newspapers. There were catholic and protestant chemist shops, differentiated by their attitude towards supplying contraception and so it went on. I'm pleased to say that in the case of my year at school the divisions broke down for small groups of people. We played sports with the catholic grammar school (but without the approval of the schools) we socialised together at concerts and in the town, and were threatened by yobs from both communities for doing so. We even, for a time, visited youth clubs in each others churches, until the busybodies in each church decided that it was 'dangerous' and that we might be setting someone up for terrorist attack. But still there were people in my year who ended their school days and could still say that they had never spoken, socially, to a Catholic. And the guys I knew from the Christian Brothers would have had similar experiences. And this is where I find this a difficult topic. I dislike the idea of banning faith schools, but I fear the division they can lead to. While basic ecconomics (and the arrival in Northern ireland of Tescos etc) has consolidated the newsagents and the chemists into chains, the division of kids at age 4 or 5 into the two tribes continues. And it is probbaly just as difficult for fifteen year olds to mix today as it was in my day. In the reasonably affluent middle-class areas, like the street I live on, the communities now mix. But go to some of the working class districts, where the paramilitaries draw their footsoldiers from, and you will still find many people who don't know anyone from the other community. It much easier to hate the stranger within, than the bloke you went to school with.

Other than in Northern Ireland and parts of scotland, Catholic/Protestant division is neither as important nor as complete and is probably not an issue. But there are other religious minorities where there is a danger that if they become totally distinct from the rest of society, similar tensions may also arise.

Having seen the potential results of these divisions first hand, I'll never forget the events of Aug 15th 1998, I would reluctantly join those who argue against faith schools.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

I am not talking about the issue itself. I am talking about the way the people involved in that thread approach it. And I think there can be no doubt that the fanaticism, the intolerance, the impulse to identify and destroy an enemy whether or not the enemy even regards you as an enemy, are on one side and one side only. And this is the sort of atheists one meets on the internet - again, and again, and again.

Northern Ireland, and western Scotland with it, are the way they are because of the way they have been made by centuries of political decisions. And the unfortunate Protestants, long since abandoned by the English government whose forebears put them there for the suppression of Catholicism, are now, together with the Catholics, performing one last service for the elites: offering a public display of religious exclusion that serves the Establishment's arguments for the destruction of all religious specificity. A fanatical enemy of Christianity such as Gordon Brown is only too grateful for any display of sectarianism and mutual dislike, however folkloric its contents, however banked its fires. It gives him an excuse to turn against the Christian religion as such. The scheme of non-education on Christian themes that dominated England since at least 1902 has resulted in a situation where most English people, and virtually all working-class native whites, know nothing whatsoever about Christianity except for two pieces of prejudice inculcated by the media (especially that beacon of public enlightenment, the BBC): one, that "religion" is a backward superstition and the enemy of "science"; two, that it "causes wars". In general, religion does not cause wars, although it may have an influence on how they are fought. But the English, never having been taught proper history or any Christian history at all, only ever met one kind of "religion" - that is, what their media tell them about their Northern Irish and Glaswegian neighbours. If you lot did not exist, the elites would have to invent something like you - something, at least, featuring only the very worst and most caricatural of your features.

[lametiger.livejournal.com]

As you say, many of the harshest, most intolerant, statements on many of these threads that I read from time to time (not often, because they are so wearying) are made by the "anti-faith" crowd. I put this in quotes, because in truth they have their own, anti-supernaturalist, faith. I do somewhat wonder if some of them are "kicking against the goad" as Saul of Tarsus did when persecuting the early Christians.

[stigandnasty919.livejournal.com]

As regards sectarianism, I think you give the planning abilities of the 'elites' too much credit here. And again I think you over-simplify Irish history a touch.... Always more of a class issue than a religious one as the rural presbyterian community were never popular with the english government either - and pre the Williamite Wars were almost equally as supressed as the catholic population - indeed the leader of the Fenian uprising, Wolfe Tone was a presbyterian.

I'm interested in knowing how you think religion should be taught in schools? And how that education should deal with the children of those who do not believe, or believe differently and do not want their children to be taught christianity as a truth. Do you think that is an acceptable position?

And how you think you think the BBC and others should reflect the opinions of those who do not believe?

I obviously see the world very differently from you, Religious education was an everyday part of my schooling from the age of 4. It is a part of my daughter's education now in the same way, and the assumption is that her family, and she, believes in God. Indeed, Religious Education and an act of Christian Worship remain the only part of the curriculem that is mandatory for all schools in Northern Ireland. There is no part in her education for the idea that god does not exist, although other religions are mentioned - which is natural when there are Muslims and Hindus in the class.

I have no objection to this, but I know others who do. I'd prefer education to be secular, with responsibility for religious education lieing with the churches, but the bible and the history of the Christian faith should be taught as a fundimental part of our society. For myself, ceaseing to believe in God, did nothing to remove my admiration of the basic teachings of the Christian religion and I would be happy to be seen as a secular follower of Christ.

As to the one-sidedness of fanaticism and intolerance of atheists. I simply don't see it. I think there are probably just as many intolerant and ignorant statements coming from those who profess belief as from those who do not. Again I wonder if we each notice and gauge intolerance differently because of our respective opinions. I may tend to write-off and ignore the extreme ramblings of those who proclaim atheism without thought or knowledge of what it is they say they don't believe in, I suspect you do the same with the lunatics on the religious side - you've already identified the Jack T Chick brigade in another post.

I have to be honest, that your comments here are very similar to comments I might have made myself, but reversing the positions. So it has made me reconsider things a little.

[stigandnasty919.livejournal.com]

Can I ask what you mean by 'Kicking Against the Goad' in this context?

[fpb.livejournal.com]

Sorry, I do not have the time - I have an ugent job to do. I will only offer you two staring-points for thought.

You assume,
One
That it is possible to have education, or indeed thought, without any kind of religion, and
Two,
That religion is to do with God or worship.
I would suggest that both assumptions are wrong, and that the first is wrong because the second is wrong.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

Clearly, what I said in the next post - that the very fact of the existence of Christians and Christianity is something that they can neither bear nor bear to leave alone.

[stigandnasty919.livejournal.com]

I'll look forward to hearing more.

I'd have to say that I think the first assumption can only be false if the second is also false. To understand this i'll have to understand what you mean by religion. I also think that while I have indeed made the first assumption, i'm not sure that I have made the second.

Fascinating - i'm enjoyiong this even more now. Good luck with the urgent job.

[lametiger.livejournal.com]

In the conversion of Saul (later Paul) as recorded in the book of Acts, he is told by the vision of the risen Jesus "It is hard for you to kick against the goad" (King James Version uses the word "pricks"). The implication was that Saul was all the harsher in his persecution because he was resisting what his subconscious told him was true. I am not saying that all who label themselves atheists are this way, but I suspect some are extra vehement because they are afraid that if they give an inch they will start believing in what they do not want to believe. This same thought has been explored by various writers, including Francis Thompson, in his poem Hound of Heaven.

[stigandnasty919.livejournal.com]

Ok, I get the point. I do know a number of other atheists, who are much more vehement than I am who would say that they are reacting to the way in which religion was forced down their throats either at school or at home which I suspect is not only true but is how they would interpret the "kicking against the goad" quotation. (Isn't is sad that we have to change that quotation because of the other connotations of the word)

I also have to say that on the occasions where the accusation that somehow I really do believe in God and am simply being perverse or am fighting a sub-conscious belief has been put to me, I have found it incredibly irritating and patronising. It may be true in some cases, and the reverse is probably also the case. But for me at least religion is something that I have considered and wrestled with and I know what I think where I have certainties and where I have doubts.

And no, what you said here didn't irritate me, because you drew the distinction between 'all' and 'some'.

I'll check out the poem you mentioned.