fpb: (Default)
[personal profile] fpb
There is one tremendous and widespread mistake about atheism: that is, that it is not a religion - that it somehow even opposes religion. Many of us, including many Christians, accept this claim implicitly, using the nouns "atheism" and "religion" as opposites. But that is about as wrong as to say that a shark is not a fish, because you cannot have one in batter with chips on the side. It is mistaking the most frequent and visible externals with the essence.

Why should atheism not be a religion? Because it implies no worship, no dogmatic faith, and no supernatural being? Religion is not essentially above any of these things, unless we commit the egregious category mistake of equating religion with Christianity. Religion is not about worship; it is not about belief; and it is not about God or about supernatural entities. For if we had to accept any of these three descriptions, we would have to rule out, among many other systems, Buddhism. Buddhism defines itself as atheistic and godless. Buddhism is not about worshipping anything: in point of fact, it is so little interested in worship that, wherever it goes, it allows previously existing systems of divine cult to continue unhindered. It is not about belief: a Thai Buddhist monk once asked me during a debate not to use the word “faith” of Buddhism, preferring to call it “wisdom”. And Buddhism is certainly not about any supernatural being. The Buddha is no more supernatural than you or I: he is simply man having achieved everything man can achieve by patient intellectual discipline and self-cleansing – like Plato’s Socrates. That is, the admiration he receives would not be different if nobody had ever heard of any such thing as gods. It is as the greatest of human heroes, achieving by his own effort and insight a level of spiritual perfection that cannot be surpassed, that he receives the tribute of enormous statues and works of art of any kind; not unlike the way that four Presidents and one Indian chief were carved into American mountains, not because they had anything divine about them, but because these men, as men, appear to patriotic Americans to tower over the rest like mountains.

Gods are unnecessary to Buddhism. Their existence is taken for granted, but the religion would lose little if their existence were denied. A Buddhist may even resort to some divine being for power, but he will not think of focusing his spiritual life on them. The point is that the spiritual perfection achieved by the Buddha and sought by his disciples is entirely non-personal. Buddhism cannot believe in any God as perfection, because in its system, personality is the denial of perfection. The gods it does accept are mere beings of power.

That is why it preserves the cults of earlier religions: it accepts the power of their gods, but only their power. Spiritually, it regards them as inferior in degree and kind to the human Buddha. In Buddhist writings, Brahma, who to the Hindus is the very image of Godhead, the animating soul of the world and Self of all that is, is a figure of the world in need of Liberation, begging the Buddha to set out on his career of preaching and save human beings: even Brahma, that is, is radically degraded.

And yet the commonsense of mankind has always agreed that Buddhism is a religion. It was as a religion, as a religious competitor, that an unholy alliance of Brahmins and Muslim invaders swept it out of its Indian homeland. (By unholy alliance, I do not mean that at any point any Brahmin leader sat down with any Muslim khan and actually planned the extermination of Buddhist monasteries; I mean that there was a converging interest between the invaders and the ancient religion of the land, and therefore the actions of Brahmins and Muslims objectively co-operated in the destruction of Indian Buddhism.) It was as a religion that Indian, Chinese and Japanese Emperors built it splendid temples, carving whole hillsides in the shape of the Enlightened One. It is as a religion that the Christian West has faced it, either in the form of faddish showbiz adhesion (even to the extent of actors, singers and models wanting to be married according to a “Buddhist wedding rite” – there ain’t no sich thing) offering some sort of spiritual escape in a world where the rigours of Christianity are not welcome, or in the serious form of intellectual and spiritual confrontation between Western and Eastern mysticism. When Buddhism, in turn, looks for interlocutors and opponents in the West, it does not look for them in the schools and the universities, but in the churches. And if Buddhism is not a religion, what is it that two billion human beings hold as spiritual truth in opposition to undoubted religions such as Christianity, Islam and Hinduism?

No: Buddhism is a religion. And if Buddhism is a religion, then religion is not primarily about God, worship, or faith. Western atheists, and westerners in general, only think so because the religion of their ancestors places a highly personal God, with a human face, at the centre of the universe; because it exists in the form of worship of this God; and because it places faith in Him very high in the order of virtues – “And now there are only three things that will last for ever, and they are faith, hope and love; and the greatest of these is love.” The great philosopher Karl Popper fell a victim to this sort of mistake: he thought Plato irreligious because Plato treated the popular stories about gods with no respect. Of course, Plato's religion was not primariy about such things at all - it was about the everlasting reality of the Ideas and their procession from Zeus - and to call him irreligious because he regarded this or that myth as a concoction created to fool the people is like calling a devout Protestant irreligious because he is not impressed by the blood of St. Januarius.

What, then, do religions have in common, if not gods or worship or faith? Or, to put in another way: how, on what grounds, does Christianity confront Buddhism? How does Islam confront Buddhism? How did Hinduism confront Buddhism before Buddhism was exterminated in India? How do the religious systems of China and Japan confront Buddhism? The answer in all cases is: as a way of describing existence. As systems about “life, the universe, and everything”. Religion is a philosophy of existence. Catholic Christianity demands a certain kind of cult, involving a certain kind of sacrifice; but it demands it because it holds a particular view of existence. This view involves the existence of a God with particular characteristics, the fact that the universe depends on this God for existence, and a particular view of God's relationship with mankind. All of these are parts of its description of reality - including both the idea and the description of God - and all the ritual and religious activities implied by Catholicism depend on its view of the world. Likewise Buddhism is an account of existence, including such a thing as a transmigrating soul, but no such thing as an ultimate God; and the ritual and religious activities it demands depend on its picture of existence. The picture of existence, the philosophy of existene, is everywhere the primary fact, which motivates all others.

To show the importance and significance of philosophical doctrines of existence in religious systems, let’s talk about the just-mentioned idea of creation. Most religions, apart from Islam, do not believe in “creation” in the sense of “creation out of nothing”, although many handbooks of comparative religion sloppily call “creation stories” what are really stories of re-creation, of the re-ordering of a previously existing, and indeed eternal, material universe. Both Buddhism and Hinduism believe in the eternity of existence, as did all Greek philosophical/religious systems, and the religion of ancient Egypt. Creation is nothing but a Christian idea, followed by Islam, and anticipated by certain strands of Hebraism. (Though by no means all. The Book of Genesis, which is a synthesis of two different pieces of pre-existent Jewish sacred writings, has both: its first chapter has the Spirit of God hovering over a pre-existent primordial mass which it simply puts in order, while its second chapter clearly describes creation out of nothing.)

Now what this means is that everything that exists depends upon the assent of God for its existence, in effect owes not only its form, but everything that makes it, to one single source – and that source a personal one, a will, an assent. (Thomas Aquinas once pointed out that, though a beginning in time is a part of the Christian faith, it is nevertheless possible to conceive of a universe that is infinite in time and that nevertheless depends upon the will of a transcendent God for its existence.) In Christian philosophy, we owe not just our life, but our being, to the fact that the God in three Persons made a conscious decision, something that can actually be compared to a human decision, to create; and that He could have decided otherwise . This creates a bond of dependency. God is as responsible for our being as our very parents, only even more so. And this involves two specific emotions, gratitude and love. Indeed, it can involve the opposite. I have known people who hated God because they hated their own existence. But Aristotle, who regarded God as the Soul of the World rather than as its ultimate creator, would not have known what any of us meant, either by thanking God, or, like Byron, by rebelling against Him. The great philosopher once remarked that we would think it rather strange to hear of someone loving Zeus. It is a Christian reaction, impossible in Hinduism or Platonism or Buddhism. And because of this personal link and sense of gratitude or otherwise, the Christian tradition involves a whole way of speaking of God which makes no sense whatever in Buddhism or Islam. A Buddhist who heard you speak of “Man’s quest for God”, which is a commonplace of Western pseudo-religious talk, would look at you blankly, or simply reinterpret your statement within his/her own categories, understanding it as “Man’s quest for Liberation” and removing the intensely personal emotion of the Christian and post-Christian world altogether. A Muslim would regard it as a self-indulgent religious frippery; God, he would say, is the one who is to find you - and when He does, God help you! Such difference does a difference in abstract doctrine make.

Before I go on, I want to add that the idea of gratitude for existence strikes me as one of those points at which the Christian revelation appears so entirely natural, so suited to reality as we experience it, so relevant to our lives and our feelings, as to give emotional and possibly even logical support to the faith itself. To love is natural, and to be grateful for what you love seems to me such a natural development that a religion that does not allow us to feel that gratitude seems to me deficient in the primary appreciation of reality. That is why that tremendous outburst of gratitude for life and breath, Beethoven’s Ninth, says so much to me. Western atheists of the monistic-materialist kind, as it has long been pointed out, are particularly unfortunate in this. They are no less than the rest of us the heirs of a tradition of emotional connection to the fact of existence; yet they find themselves in the emotionally unsatisfactory place of having to be grateful only for lesser things. I can be grateful to Beethoven for this or that masterpiece; but, if I were an atheist, to whom would I be grateful for Beethoven? Thankfully, I know exactly Who to thank.

If, then, religion is primarily a philosophy of existence, then monistic materialism certainly is a religion; and it is for this reason, too, that I feel nothing but contempt for Wicca, as for Asatru, James Hillman’s post-Junghianism, and all the other neo-paganisms. They do not even begin to claim that they have any real view of existence; all they say is that their message will suit people’s psychic inner realities, that is, that it will make them feel better. I regard all these neo-paganisms as religious masturbation. The person who moves from Wicca to atheism has taken an enormous step forwards in terms of intellectual responsibility, honesty, and religious truth.

Monistic materialism, on the other hand, is religious in everything except its outer trappings. Its own discourse about itself, its use of language, its relationship with the world, are all typical. To begin with, the claim of monistic materialism is historical: its main doctrine is that “today” – in the eighteenth, nineteenth, twentieth, twenty-first century – we can no longer believe what our more ignorant fathers believed. Our time has received a newer and more advanced revelation of the nature of reality, which overpasses and replaces theirs. But this is the claim of all the world religions, from Zoroastrianism to Buddhism to Christianity to Islam. There always is a point in which a “true” doctrine about the nature of the universe is reached, which is bound to replace all the previous ones, which are either insufficient (doctrine of the earlier religions as praeparatio evangelica; Muslim view of “peoples of the Book”; Buddhism) or positively wicked (Zoroastrian view of the religoin of the Divs; occasional Christian claims that all previous religions except Hebraism were ran by demons; Muslim view of jahiliya). This is an inevitable by-product of the growing consciousness of civilized man that history is a real and a changing force. Not all great religions share this feature: those which do not arise from a reform or historical revelation – Hinduism, Taoism, Confucianism – do not postulate a similar break. But it is certain that the break in question is a religious phenomenon.

Another religious feature of monistic materialism, which arises from the same root, is its implicit demand for exclusiveness. To be what is normally called an atheist does not allow you to entertain any opposing view of reality. This is easily understandable: the only justification for such a historical movement of reform is that it represents a genuine advance in our understanding of reality – that its claims are true, or at least truer than any other – and that, therefore, to entertain the possibility of opposite claims is to slide from the better to the worse. Western Atheists make a claim to intellectual clarity and focus that demands that they should not allow their intellects to be fuddled by the claims of what they call “religion” – that is, all religions which are not theirs. Many of them would feel something like guilt if they found themselves drawn, on any grounds (e.g. emotional) to any other religion; especially to the bête noire, Catholic Christianity.

This is reflected in the way monistic materialism speaks of itself, a way which, incidentally, has effectively taken over our culture. In ordinary discourse, and, as I hope I am making clear, very much against the logic of the facts, the word “religion” is generally used as the opposite of the word “atheism”. This use is strictly comparable to the early Christian use of the word “pagan”, village-dweller. Christianity came into the world in opposition to a multiplicity of cults. When it gained political, social and intellectual victory, it invented a term for the opposition that greatly simplified matters: it labelled them all as "village practices" paganism (from pagus, that is the kind of village that is too small to have an autonomous existence or to count even as a small town). All of them, from the superstition of an Egyptian villager to the lofty philosophy of Plotinus, were no more than country stuff, fit only for ignorant and backward people left behind by the progress of knowledge. And in exactly the same way, just as Christianity labelled or libelled all other religions as “village practices”, so too monistic materialism labels all competing views of the world as “religion” - irrational, backward, unscientific. The exclusion is on exactly the same grounds: times have moved on, leaving the "ignorant, backward and easily led" believers in "religion" to toy with their village superstitions. Please reflect on the fact that these usages both tend to treat the highest achievements of the human mind as no less superstitious and irrational, ignorant "village practices", as real rustic superstition. Socrates and Plotinus are no less pagan than the ignorant rustic leaving a sacrifice to his village god; and Beethoven composing the Ninth Symphony and the Solemn Mass is as much under the grip of superstition as the most ignorant Neapolitan waiting for the blood of St.Januarius to liquefy.

Inherited pietas and native respect towards things that are instinctively experienced as great do not allow most atheists to push this way of speaking and thinking as far as it should logically be pushed; but the terms require it. If Beethoven was serious, as he certainly was, when he solemnly declared, as the very climax of his symphony and indeed of his career: Brüder! Überm Sternenzelt/ Muss ein lieber Vater wohnen!/ Ihn stürtzt nieder, Millionen?/ Ahnest du den Macher, Welt?/ Such Ihm überm Sternenzelt!/ Über Sternen muss Er wohnen ("Brothers! Above the canopy of stars, there must dwell a loving Father! Do you knee before Him, millions? Do you feel the Maker, world? Seek Him above the stars' canopy; there, above them, must He dwell!") - then Beethoven was promoting superstition, and, to be blunt, wasting his talent in a bad cause. To any coherent atheist, this is at best a piece of historically-determined nonsense, the superstitious transfer of a father-figure into the top of the world; that was how the Soviets of old used to present it, as soon as they realized that they could not altogether get rid of religion in all the culture they lay claim to. That, above all, is the implication of the use of the word "religion" to oppose "atheism".

To sum up my argument, the opposition “atheism/religion” is false. Far from being linguistically neutral, is a particularly fraudulent piece of linguistic imperialism. Atheism is not the opposite of religion, any more than Christianity is the opposite of religion. The effect of this false opposition, bought like a pig in a poke by the whole of contemporary culture (including even C.S.Lewis and not a few churchmen!), is to cast the whole intellectual past of man into the shadow of one tremendous new revelation; which is exactly what the world religions, from Zoroastrianism on, did.

Atheism, in fact, what some silly people describe as humanism and some pedantic ones as monistic materialism, is utterly and totally a religion. It declares that a certain way to think of and describe reality is correct, or at least closer to the truth than any other; it makes a clear and definite statement about reality. And there is this too, that it carries the emotional corollary of rejecting all other competing theories, and often of experiencing them not only as mistaken but as temptations.

Date: 2008-04-13 03:47 pm (UTC)
filialucis: (Default)
From: [personal profile] filialucis
1. Bravo.

2. "...its first chapter has the Spirit of God hovering over a pre-existent primordial mass which it simply puts in order, ..."

Really? Interesting. I'd always read that to mean God first created the heaven and the earth and then put in order the primordial mass ("the earth without form, and void") that resulted from Genesis I:1.

3. "I regard all these neo-paganisms as religious masturbation."

Hee!

4. "...occasional Christian claims that all previous religions except Hebraism were ran by demons;"

On that subject: if not by demons, by what did (or do) Christians reckon that previous religions were run? I.e. do Christians (especially, for present purposes, Catholic Christians) believe that the pagan gods are real supernatural beings of some sort, or purely imaginary constructs?

5. If atheism (as I fully concur) is not the opposite of religion, what is?

Date: 2008-04-13 04:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fpb.livejournal.com
2. That is certainly how Christians read it. However, scholars maintain that Genesis I and Genesis II are alternative accounts of the beginning of all things originally from different texts, and I think that, as compared with Genesis II, Genesis I strongly suggests the pre-existence of shapeless matter ("the waters"). I think this is a widespread scholarly theory.

4. I do not think there is any specific Catholic teaching on this matter. Many Fathers took the living and aggressive paganism of their day to be powered by demons; they were facing something present and powerful, and took reports of miracles at shrines and such very seriously, so they could not but suspect demonic activity behind it. ON the other hand, Eusebius argued that all previous religious ideas had at least important features that were Praeparatio Evangelica, and wrote a gigantic historical work on this theme. But it must not be forgotten that Eusebius, however zealous and hard-working, died in the Arian heresy, and that his views may have been affected by its over-intellectualizing. The way I see it is this: first, we do not know where religions begin, since the vast majority of the human past - over a hundred thousand years against less than seven thousand - is beyond the reach of history. But wherever man tried to figure out for himself, without the supernatural aid of God, what reality was, man was bound to get something wrong. However close to reality man might come, the elements of wrong which inevitably crept into his ideas meant that ultimately his religious traditions, unless helped by the direct intervention of God, would ultimately tend to move away from rather than in the direction of reality, because if you build on error - even a small error - you get more error. Try changing a single digit on a mathematical calculation, see what you get. What happened in Palestine in the reigns of Augustus and Tiberius was, among other things, that God Himself took in hand the religious ideas of those who met Him. I think we may all agree that, however God-haunted the Jews themselves may have been, they would never by purely human reason have achieved such ideas as the Trinity, the Incarnation, the Eucharist, or the Atonement. You cannot get there from here, which is why Christianity is not just another school of Hebraism. Something entirely new has entered and altered the equation.

5) Probably, agnosticism: that is, a refusal to hold enough store by any account of reality to exclude opposing possibilities. In another sense, imbecility - the inability to achieve a coherent view of reality. In reality, I do not think that anyone has at least a sketch of reality at the back of his or her mind.

Date: 2008-04-14 04:55 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] headnoises.livejournal.com
On 4: I recall but can't find the explanation that basically people make the false faiths, and demons make the "miracles."

Hard to get more evil than what folks can come up with.

Date: 2008-04-14 05:57 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fpb.livejournal.com
So you are disposed to ascribe everything that is not Christian to the Devil? The wisdom and nobility of Confucius? The beauty of Chinese or Indian art? Socrates? Virgil? Plato? I have a problem with that. I would rather say, with St.Justin Martyr (the first Christian philosopher), that "everything in the world that has been well done belongs to us Christians!"

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Date: 2008-04-13 03:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] asakiyume.livejournal.com
I've always known atheism was a religion; I realized that in listening to Carl Sagan, who was evangelical about his faith in atheism and devout in his belief in a materialist universe. Somehow though, I loved him, while I really can't stand Richard Dawkins and his ilk. I guess the thing is, Carl Sagan was practically spiritual in his atheism; he reminds me of the good Calormene in The Last Battle; I get the feeling that in fact he did/does know God and just, while with us on Earth, didn't understand to name God God. But perhaps I'm being sentimental, or swayed by my own feelings.

I really enjoyed this essay; thanks.

Date: 2008-04-13 04:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fpb.livejournal.com
I agree. Because Sagan's view was of something positive, one learned something from him even where one disagreed. He was passionately keen to transmit scientific ideas and results. Dawkins, by contrast, is a reductionist even within his own field; his best known theory is that of the "selfish gene", which manages to make Darwinism look even meaner and more cruel than it had ever seemed before. And where we get beyond Dawkins' own speciality, then the fact that he is essentially preaching out of hate and fear is as evident as the stars in the sky at night.

(Incidentally, a beautiful sentence from the Italian patriot Giuseppe Mazzini - who was not Catholic: "He who denies God in the sight of a starry sky... must be either a greatly unhappy person, or a greatly guilty one.")

Date: 2008-04-13 04:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] superversive.livejournal.com
It helps that the modern atheist is almost entirely an urban animal, and likes to live in environments with so much light-pollution that the stars have been permanently banished from view. If you cannot deny God in the sight of a starry sky, you can achieve the same result by denying the starry sky.

Date: 2008-04-13 04:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fpb.livejournal.com
I would not go so far. I can assure you that even from London, where I live, it is possible to see stars on a clear night. It is my own pleasure, in summer, to go out and sit under them and look at them. And when Mazzini wrote that sentence (in direct polemic with nineteenth-century atheists), Italian cities were much smaller and less industrialized than they are now. It is perhaps more to the point that such people do not try. And that is another reason why Carl Sagan is different from the ruck - it was not that he would not see the stars, as much as that his eyes were so full of stars that they could not, like Beethoven, see "above the stars".
Edited Date: 2008-04-13 04:58 pm (UTC)

Date: 2008-04-13 05:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] theswordmaiden.livejournal.com
To me, religion means believing that God(s), spirits, higher power, etc., or anything that can't be proven scientifically, do or do not exist. I think it cannot be proven either way, whether God exists or whether you reincarnate after death, so if you believe one way or the other then that's your religious belief. Atheists believe something they couldn't prove, just as I do, so to me atheism is a religion.

Date: 2008-04-14 03:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cerebresque.livejournal.com
I would reply that this privileges not believing in the existence of deity over not believing in anything else.

I do not believe in God because I have no evidence available to me that implies his existence.

I do not believe in galaxies composed entirely of purple stars because there is no evidence available to me that implies their existence, either.

In either case, should some evidence turn up, I would immediately change my position to accord with it.

And yet, while for the latter specifying that you take no position on the existence of such galaxies because of lack of evidence would be considered unnecessary circumlocution at best, a strangely permissive, even solipistic position at worst and 'I do not believe that such exist' is considered acceptable shorthand, when the former is concerned, many people insist upon the circumlocution and reject the shorthand.

And no-one would say that I had a positive belief in the nonexistence of purple galaxies, either.

I acknowledge that there appear to be some atheists who have a positive belief in the nonexistence of deity, which is fallacious because there's no evidence to support such a positive belief, but conflating this group with the group who decline to believe due to lack of evidence is fallacious also, because evidence of absence is not the same thing as lack of evidence of presence.

(The latter is also not the same as agnosticism, which requires belief that the answer to the question is inherently, not merely practically, unknowable, but there are at least three non-identical positions here - is my point - not only two.)

A few questions

Date: 2008-04-14 03:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fpb.livejournal.com
Do you admit that no decently intelligent human being can be without a picture/idea/concept/philosophy of existence?

Do you admit that, unlike purple galaxies, any entity defineable as God is certainly a part of such a picture? (Purple galaxies may or may not exist without great alteration to the picture of existence as such; the existence and qualities of God, on the other hand, are surely inevitably and immediately relevant to it.)

Do you admit that the motivating principle behind all honest religious practice is the idea the religion has of existence?

Do you admit that, therefore, the motivating core, the thing without which religion could not exist, is not the ritual, the practice, but the philosophy of existence?

Do you admit that monistic materialism (to give it its philosophical name) is a perfectly valid philosophy of existence, that can be taken as credible, defended in argument, and even used as a base for action?

Finally, do you understand what I mean when I say that the job of defamation carried out by early Christians against competing religions when they called them "village practices" ("paganism") is the same in kind as that carried out by atheists when they claim to oppose "atheism" to "religon"?

Re: A few questions

Date: 2008-04-14 04:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cerebresque.livejournal.com
Do you admit that no decently intelligent human being can be without a picture/idea/concept/philosophy of existence?

I suspect that even less intelligent human beings have a philosophy of existence, even if they remain mostly unaware of it, but essentially, yes.

Do you admit that, unlike purple galaxies, any entity defineable as God is certainly a part of such a picture? (Purple galaxies may or may not exist without great alteration to the picture of existence as such; the existence and qualities of God, on the other hand, are surely inevitably and immediately relevant to it.)

With qualification; inasmuch as any reasonably complete philosophy of existence has to include a physics as well as a metaphysics, the existence of something so very contradictory to physics as we know it should be part of such a picture, but that's quibbling, really, especially over a throwaway example. Your underlying point here I certainly admit.

Do you admit that the motivating principle behind all honest religious practice is the idea the religion has of existence?

I agree.

Do you admit that, therefore, the motivating core, the thing without which religion could not exist, is not the ritual, the practice, but the philosophy of existence?

I agree.

Do you admit that monistic materialism (to give it its philosophical name) is a perfectly valid philosophy of existence, that can be taken as credible, defended in argument, and even used as a base for action?

It is. I would, however, stipulate that not all atheism is monistic materialism.

Finally, do you understand what I mean when I say that the job of defamation carried out by early Christians against competing religions when they called them "village practices" ("paganism") is the same in kind as that carried out by atheists when they claim to oppose "atheism" to "religon"?

I believe so, yes. However, I think this conflates two different positions both of which could be described as opposition. A firm adherent to monistic materialism is, in effect, taking up a position equal and opposite to that of theism in asserting that the evidence demonstrates that his philosophy of existence, which includes no God, is correct. I would admit that that can be considered a 'religious' position, although really I think what's called for is a word that describes faith-based/unprovable positions so asserted that includes both it and theistic religions to properly describe both; given the origin and use of the word "religion", I don't think it fits the purpose very well. But in this case, I would agree that this is defamation in that sense and kind.

The other position, which is mine and I believe that of many other atheists, is that while I believe my philosophy of existence is as close to correct as I can make it, given the evidence available on which to base it, the evidence available to me is finite and non-conclusive in many areas, and thus the resulting philosophy is necessarily also incomplete and non-conclusive. This isn't the same as the agnostic position, because I have no reason to judge the question unknowable, but the current evidence also is insufficient to judge the question either way. I consider this an atheist position, because the rules of logic require me not to assume existence without evidence, but it's also, I would say, opposed to both religion, in its common sense, and to the type of atheism described above; both of them are making assertions about the concept of God that are unprovable by the evidence. I would describe that, effectively, as a middle position between the two beliefs.

Re: A few questions

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Re: A few questions

Date: 2008-04-18 02:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] madfedor.livejournal.com
Finally, do you understand what I mean when I say that the job of defamation carried out by early Christians against competing religions when they called them "village practices" ("paganism") is the same in kind as that carried out by atheists when they claim to oppose "atheism" to "religon"?

That is an excellent and key question in this topic. While we may find agreement that, as philosophies of existence, religion and atheism may co-exist in isolation, we must not ignore the cultural dynamics. The comparison between, for example, Sagan and Dawkins is an excellent point on which to focus. We (general) often focus on the egregious violence committed against the early Christians by the Roman government, but it must be emphasized that the punishments were for the crime of refusing to acknowledge and participate in the rituals of the state religion. History is rife with similar examples of religious violence. We should not be surprised that Dawkinsesque rhetoric is taken in that light.

The conflict I see is in the unconscious comparison between acquired and revealed. Christianity starts as a revealed (holy text, catechism, etc.) belief system; modern paganisms start as acquired (i.e. experiential) belief systems. Again, consider: one does not discover on one's own that a person named Jesus was the son of God, preached a radically new message for his time, and was executed-resurrected-ascended to heaven on behalf of humanity, then suddenly meet others who have the same belief. At some point well beyond our lifetimes, Wicca may morph into a revealed belief system, and arguably is already somewhat down that path. But, as a subset member of "paganism", it remains a belief system that one can at least to a certain point discover for one's self.

Another point of conflict is mythos. Christianity (and other belief systems) have established mythos that define the belief system in a sort of feedback loop. Wicca has a short list of core beliefs, but no unifying mythos. From where I sit, you are making the mythos mistake: you see unification structure in some religions, and failing to find it in paganism make the fallacious comparison underlying your (unfortuante, grin) usage of "religious masturbation". I would expect pagan reconstructionists to recognize this, since their effort is primarily focused on learning the original mythos and attempting to work it into contemporary contexts.

My rebuttal would look something like this: You expect a religion to partake in an established, revealed mythos that provides easily recognized structure and continuity. Modern pagans approach mythos as individuals, discover like-minded fellows with whom to form community and joint exploration, and acquire their beliefs as part of their journey.

That there are exceptions to my generalizations is stipulated. I do not believe they necessarily invalidate the abstract level of my argument.

Re: A few questions

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Re: A few questions

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Date: 2008-04-14 06:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] theswordmaiden.livejournal.com
I do not believe in God because I have no evidence available to me that implies his existence.

I do not believe in galaxies composed entirely of purple stars because there is no evidence available to me that implies their existence, either.


To me those aren't really comparable. The color of a star is observable, but gods or their actions aren't. I mean, observable things are in within the realm of science and other things aren't.

So I don't see why believing in deities has anything to do with evidence. Supernatural things are things you *believe* or don't believe in. Evidence is something you *accept,* like evidence for evolution. To me they are apples and oranges and I don't see why evidence matters for something that's outside science and observation.

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Date: 2008-04-14 06:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] theswordmaiden.livejournal.com
Oh, I forgot to say, you sound like you do not believe either way, you just say there is no evidence. So to me you sound agnostic, not atheist. You don't say "there is no God," you say "I can't say one way or the other because I haven't seen any evidence." Sorry if I twisted your words or something, that's just how I read you.

Date: 2008-04-14 04:52 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] headnoises.livejournal.com
Religion: system of belief, no matter how loosely defined.

One of the few really, really good rulings that the US judicial system has come up with.

Date: 2008-04-14 05:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fpb.livejournal.com
Actually, that does not quite work. The laughing factory inmate who is convinced he is Napoleon has a system of belief. A definition of reality has to be a part of even an insane religion.

Date: 2008-04-14 05:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] headnoises.livejournal.com
Sadly, no matter how insane the religion, if you have enough folks believing it....

Mostly because of the question: who gets to define reality?

Hm...maybe "A system of belief about the nature of reality"?

Date: 2008-04-14 07:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mentalguy.livejournal.com
I've no subtantive disagreements except that I think the modern atheist movement can only be called a proto-religion at this point: it still lacks otherwise universal characteristics of religion like shared rituals and community observances. This may change with time, but at present I think it is premature to call atheism a religion.

(In a sense, incomplete as a religion, atheism is complimentary with neopaganism: neopagans have ritual and community, but no metaphysical doctrine, whereas atheists have a metaphysical doctrine but no ritual or community.)

Date: 2008-04-15 02:09 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fpb.livejournal.com
Come to think of it, you may have something there. The assumption at the heart of neo-paganism - that religion has nothing to do with reality, and everything to do with subjective thins such as emotional fit and/or ethnic belonging - is, to say the least, compatible with a monistic materialist view of existence. And on the other hand, monistic materialism can have no possible exception to "religions" whose sole stated goal is to "heal" the psychic problems of individuals, and that make no claim to having an objective reality.

Date: 2008-04-17 06:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] johncwright.livejournal.com
"(In a sense, incomplete as a religion, atheism is complimentary with neopaganism: neopagans have ritual and community, but no metaphysical doctrine, whereas atheists have a metaphysical doctrine but no ritual or community.)"

This is a very interesting insight.

Once I sat down with my neopagan friend (and this is a charming fellow and beloved friend I'd known since college days) and asked him a few simple questions about his religious belief. It was a disorienting experience for me. If I were to be flippant, I would say it emotionally scarred me for life. I was a hardcore atheist at the time, and I was used to tough and rigorous intellectual effort. I sat down meaning to question my good friend on his beliefs until I found and exposed the roots of them, the unstated axioms underpinning his proofs.

He had nothing.

It was a vacuum.

There is a scene in the movie DARK CITY where two men are trying to break out of the prison of a false reality erected for them by sinister aliens. Behind the final door is a brick wall. Breaking through the brick wall is outer space: a void without air or sea, neither down nor up, no earth and no sun. Just endless emptiness.

It was like that. My friend had no ideas, not even a myth or an account, of where life came from, or what happened after you died, of what the meaning of life is, or what duties the gods impose on us, or where the gods came from, or what made them gods, or what the role of the gods in history was, or what was the nature of beauty, truth, meaning, life, ethics, justice, the nature of self and other, the nature of the one and the many, the relation of the mind to the body or of perception to reality, or anything else.

The idea that an intelligent, well-educated, scientifically trained thinker would drift through life without once having found and answer to any of life's questions, without even (as far as I can tell) having asked any of life's question was profoundly disturbing to me. I do not see how anyone could live that way. How do you solve moral quandaries without a system of morality? How do you decide how to live if you have no opinions whatsoever about the meaning of life, the point of happiness, or a theory of human nature? How do you decide even some simple things like whether to get anchovies on pizza, or whether to cut someone off in traffic?

I remember that conversation so well because it was the first time in my life that a grudging respect, very grudging, for my hated enemies the Christians stirred and came to life in my breast. I thought that the Christians were wrong in their method, their conclusions, and their axioms, wrong root and branch and leaf, but at least they had answers.

I was an atheist. I had answers to all those questions. After death, there was nothing: we dissolved back into the elements like beasts. The purpose of life was the rational pursuit of one's long term self-interests to the degree permissible within the structure of duties. The purpose of being a man was to live as befits a rational animal. And so on. Those answers now seem blind, dull and flat to my Christian eyes, dazzled as I now am, having seen the glory of God and lived: but at least they were answers of a kind.

A religion? I would not use that word, unless you include skepticism as a sacrament.

Date: 2008-04-19 01:55 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nicked-metal.livejournal.com
I would not use that word, unless you include skepticism as a sacrament.

Why exclude scepticism as a sacrament? If it is partaken of frequently and with fervour, is it not equivalent to prayer?

Date: 2008-04-15 09:19 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] stigandnasty919.livejournal.com
Interesting and as usual well-argued,however I always worry slightly about an argument where an opponent of a view allows themself to define it. Quite often they have not defined what the holders of the view believe, but what the person who opposes that view objects to in some of the proponants of the idea. Not necessarily the same thing. And that is what I think you have done here.

I would suggest, that the fundamental difference between atheism and the religions you mention in your argument, is that religions are positive in outlook and atheism is negative. Religion is about answers, atheism is the denial of other peoples answers.

Most atheists may well be humanists or monistic materialists (Which I would also argue are not interchangable terms), but it would be possible to be an atheist without holding either of these positions. Indeed I would suggest that many materialists became materialists because of their atheism rather than the other way round. I would place myself in that category. (and i'm probably a very poor materialist - especially when it comes to the philosophy of mind).

What is also interesting for some atheists is that their disbelief is based on a previous belief. Thus you will have people who become atheists for philosophical reasons, after previously believing in a specific religion.

So you may find that a Christian becomes an atheist through consideration of "the Problem of Evil". He had declared himself an atheist because he no longer belives in the Christian God, but the problem of evil, of itself, is not a reason to reject all theistic beliefs. His atheism is actually based on his former Christian belief - which had written off any theistic alternatives.

I think I have rambled off the point, but I believe that your argument depends on an identity of atheism and materialism which I do not believe exists.









Date: 2008-04-16 05:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fpb.livejournal.com
I do not think you have rambled off the point, but I would say that once one adopts a central premise as true, or at least as the closest to truth that you can get, that central premise becomes itself a positive fact and force. The notion itself of the world of matter as the sole existing world has a whole series of consequences that cannot be dodged. Of course the reasons to reach that conclusion likewise remain active forces; one cannot undo one's past. I well remember one Greek friend of my sister's who informed me in one and the same breath that he was an atheist and that we Catholics, because of the Filioque clause, were nevertheless heretics! IN the same way that an Italian Catholic is not like an Irish Catholic and an Irish Catholic is not like an English Catholic from an old Recusant family, and yet they have so many essential points in common that it is quite natural and obvious to talk of a Catholic point of view.

BTW, a small request. If you happen to have a large space at the end of your comment, would you mind clearing it? It looks ugly like this.

Date: 2008-04-17 09:53 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] stigandnasty919.livejournal.com
Just as soon as I figure out how too....

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