The times, they are a changin'

[fpb]

Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And don't criticize
What you can't understand.
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command,
Your old road is rapidly agin';
Please get out of the new one if you can't lend your hand,
For the times they are a changin'.
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5g798CHaazwkE1E0TMQv8AZ60Bj1wD91DKPI00

Like all really inevitable and natural development, this one surprised everybody, including me. Well, what the Hell did we all expect? People like babies. Women particularly like babies. Girls - with a few exceptions in whose personal history it is all too easy to read the emotional reasons - intensely love babies. You cannot introduce a baby among a group of schoolgirls without being practically drowned by cooings and bursts of wonder at the cuteness of them. Nobody should have expected that this natural instinct could be for ever silenced by an artificial image of a brilliant career woman, something which, for nine women out of ten, has no reality at all. Women look at Sex and the City with its childless, unmarried, rich, elegant forty-years-old, as they read Hello magazine: as a kind of fable. I do not understand the appeal myself, but I very much doubt whether it has anything to do with daily or real life. Women read their glossy magazines in ordinary, sometimes drab homes, and do not seem to make much of an effort to imitate them. It all seems to me to live in a special space of the mind dedicated to unreality. If any woman identifies with the Sex and the City characters, it cannot be because of their surroundings or careers; it is more a matter of the common complaint about weak, shiftless, commitment-phobic men - which, whether or not it is true, is at least a commonplace female whine. The idea that millions of schoolgirls go out into the great wide world in the hope of becoming top corporate lawyers, marketing VPs, or even fashion designers or Hollywood actresses, seems to me naive in the extreme. Some of them may dream of such things; most of them know that they never will happen. And the universal cultural pressure on girls to regard babies as obstacles in the way of their careers is increasingly nullified by the fact that, across the advanced world, the vast majority of women know that they will have no careers. The idea of spending one's life moving forwards in a job until one achieves a high and permanent rank is outdated, not only for the majority of women, but of men too. The same people who tried to scare us with the fear of being hobbled to babies for life also informed us, in the same breath, that the notion of jobs for life is an outdated superstition.

Come writers and critics
Who prophesize with your pen
And keep your eyes wide;
The chance won't come again.
And don't speak too soon
For the world's still in spin
And there's no tellin' who that it's namin';
For the loser now will be later to win,
For the times, they are a changin'.

It is a case study in the power and limit of cultural consensus. They removed the stigma from illegitimacy; these days, most people who call someone a "bastard" (and weirdly enough, it is a popular insult) do not know what is meant to be insulting about the term. But they could not remove the attraction from babies, or the magnetism from sex. Every attempt to make maternity unattractive or dreaded must founder on the reality of human nature. A number of people will no doubt absorb these attitudes: they are the kind who, for one reason or another, deviate from the human average. The majority may well learn to repeat them by rote, but will never internalize them; their emptiness will become manifest - they will vanish like mist in the sun - at the sight of a single real baby. You have made it easier, not harder, for your children to have babies. The result, as I said, should have been expected; it is only the result of our universal attachment to statistics - which are, after all, always yesterday's news - that kept us from seeing the obvious.

I am not saying that there will ever be a fad for having babies as such among sixteen-year-olds. One good (or rather bad) experience of childbirth would knock that sort of nonsense on the head, and at any rate even sixteen-year-olds are not that silly. The point is rather that the coming generation is beginning to instinctively see its future, not in terms of career - they learned at the cradle how difficult and fickle a thing it is - but in terms of children, of family, of heirs. These girls know that in nine times out of ten, what will give their lives continuity and content will not be the ever-changing, mostly frustrating, sometimes dangerous and unwelcoming, reality of work, but their families; that their real life is apt to be at home, with a husband or partner if they are lucky, but with a baby anyway. And like young people across the world, they are impatient to start.

The line, it is drawn.
The curse, it is cast.
The slow one now
Will later be fast
As the present now
Will later be past
The order is rapidly fadin'.
AND THE FIRST ONES NOW WILL LATER BE LAST -
For the times, they are a changin'.

Comments

[fpb.livejournal.com]

You are too honest for your own good. As for health, I would be curious to hear how my mother (who had me at 16, my sister at 17, and my brother at 21) fits in - she looks a good ten years younger than her 62, and I don't remember her being seriously ill in the last ten or fifteen years at least. (But then, she comes from a very long-lived family, in which centenarians aren't uncommon.)

[curia-regis.livejournal.com]

I'm just in a rather analytical mood. I blame my thesis. Most of the time, I really do choose my words carefully and try not to make generalizations and try to be critical (even of articles I'm using to try to back up my point!) But hey, get me angry, and I can be as irrational and dishonest as the next person! :p

Well I think that article really implied that 16 year olds were more likely to have health problems. But if your mother was a healthy 16 year old who had enough red meat and no real health problems and had mostly passed puberty, and had good doctors, then she would have been fine. Same as a 40 year old who ate correctly, was healthy, fit, etc, would probably be fine having a kid as well. Most of those statistics go on the 'normal' person, and yeah, the normal 20 year old would be far better equipped energy and health wise to deal with a baby. However, I would weigh that up against the fact 20 year olds are rather irresponsible (generally, obviously there are many exceptions!) and while having a baby may make them more mature, I would honestly prefer they wait five years and grow up first. I've seen too many 20 year olds leave their keys, wallets, laptops lying around randomly, or abandon friends when they're bored. I'd really not want to see how they deal with a baby when they realise that it's not all fun, smiles and baby showers.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

And how many irresponsible 16-years-old are more responsible at 20 or at 40? I do not think people change that much, and, alas, I have met any amount of selfish, careless, me-first old folks. Those included, even-more-alas, a number of parents.

[curia-regis.livejournal.com]

I'm hoping at least some of them! I would agree that some people wouldn't change, but I do think that 'some' (that's such a vague term, but I obviously can't put a percentage on it!) of them will change. I mean, it's called 'growing up' for a reason. At the age of sixteen, hormones tend to rule us a bit more than at the age of 25. Even if we know what's right and wrong, we don't necessarily follow it.

Those included, even-more-alas, a number of parents.

Mmm. Imo, parents should be made to pass some sort of parenting class. This would be difficult to implement though. But a good theoretical idea. Some parents don't know the first thing about looking after a baby. And not all of them will read a book to get the information. Society seems to believe we're inbuilt with some sort of parenting radar.

I really don't think there's anything wrong with being selfish as long as you don't bring another life in the world. If you're just looking out for yourself in the world, that's fine. You'll probably end up with no friends, but it's your choice. But if you have a baby (which is one of the few decisions that is completely free and open to us without any restrictions!) then you're bringing a helpless dependent in the world, who should be considered first in your life because they are entirely dependent on you.

Parenting classes

[fpb.livejournal.com]

It may interest you that some Catholic dioceses insist on people taking marriage and parenting classes before they are married. And it has happened that, as a result of open discussion in these classes, some people have actually decided that they were not ready or suited. "Some", of course - the majority did. After all, most people realize that when you make a decision, you take the bad as well as the good. Even if you only decide to send an aunt a thank-you card, you have to go through the nuisance of choosing and buying one and writing an appropriate message. There is no decision without nuisance.

Re: Parenting classes

[curia-regis.livejournal.com]

That's a really good idea actually. Hey, this is about the only time when I'd applaud a decision by the Catholic church.

After all, most people realize that when you make a decision, you take the bad as well as the good.

Of course. But this way they're making an informed decision. And that's what matters, in my book. As long as you know what the bad is, you won't be surprised or horrified when things don't turn out to be perfect.

[elegant-bonfire.livejournal.com]

I think people stay irresponsible if they are allowed to do so. I count myself among those who didn't. Yeah, I was a flake at 16--one of my more memorable gaffs was backing my mom's car full speed into a telephone pole--but my mom made me grow up. I spent my first two years of college locally, then transferred to a bigger state university. Mom told me flat out that if I moved back to her house after I was done with college, I would have to pay rent. After my 3rd year of college, I declared myself independent to qualify for more student grants rather than loans, and I never lived with my mom again. She pushed me out of the nest and made me fly on my own. ;)

[haikujaguar.livejournal.com]

How does one become responsible without suddenly being given a duty that requires you to become responsible, with no reprieve if you "just don't feel like it"?

[curia-regis.livejournal.com]

Through deep reflective thought?

I admit, it's probably not the most efficient method of becoming responsible, but it is theoretically possible.

[haikujaguar.livejournal.com]

To be honest, I have not observed deep thought being that effective. O_O

Most of life seems to involve leaping into the breach and rising to the challenge of the unexpected complications that come your way.

I would never say that planning is unimportant (the good Lord knows, I am a PLANNER, to the point of having had to teach myself spontaneity...!), but the truth is... you can only ever plan so much of your life, and even the parts you plan rarely work out the way you intend. :)

[curia-regis.livejournal.com]

Well it probably isn't for everybody. I'm a fairly introspective person and although I haven't had a chance to experience many, many things in life, I do like to consider what I'd do in certain circumstances and come up with possible outcomes and ethical valuations of certain decisions versus other decisions.

But maybe I'm a bit weird. :p

[haikujaguar.livejournal.com]

I don't think you're weird, for truth. :) I've been told that introspection is rare, but I don't know how true that is. But in my own experience, my introspections have not really prepared me for reality. Either I'm very poor at imagining situations and extrapolating based on them, or reality just trumps thought exercises. *chortle*

I admit I was very irritated as a youth when people would tell me, "You won't get it until you go through it." And then I was irritated again as a young adult to discover in every case I can remember, it was true. And now, to my my resigned amusement, I find myself saying it myself: "You won't really understand until you do it." :)

I guess I'm just a big fan of experience...! Comes from living a very sheltered childhood and discovering that the things I hadn't experienced couldn't be prepared-for by reading, researching or thinking...!

[curia-regis.livejournal.com]

Well, actually, I've found that true for some circumstances as well. :) However, the introspection did help somewhat even in those circumstances.

In any case, I'm sincerely hoping some of my imagined scenarios don't happen! I'm sure I'll know how I'll really react should a worldwide plague actually happen, but in the absence of that, I'll happily plan out possible reactions. They might be completely useless, but hey, least I would be a little better off than somebody who never thought about it at all. Hopefully!


I admit I was very irritated as a youth when people would tell me, "You won't get it until you go through it."

Might I ask what instances this included?

Personally, I think my instances of not being able to imagine scenarios accurately enough came from too little research (and me pretending to myself that I'd actually done the requisite research!) rather than anything else.

[haikujaguar.livejournal.com]

Ah, so. For me, it's things like: going through the major illnesses of loved ones. What it's like to have someone die. What it's like to be in love. What it's like to be married. What it's like to be pregnant; what it's like to be a parent. What it's like to suffer major illness; what it's like to be depressed; what it's like to work; what it's like to get older.

I had imagined all these things, of course. And I had done a fairly good job of deciding what to do about them. What imagining them did not help me with at all was understanding how they would make me feel, and how they would change me.

[curia-regis.livejournal.com]

Ah. Well I have experienced several of those and I didn't find them that different to what I'd imagined. I'm sincerely hoping I don't experience the whole pregnancy/being a parent ones. But yes, I do imagine that suffering illness or going through the death of a loved one would affect me differently to what I've imagined.

[haikujaguar.livejournal.com]

In the end, I'm glad that most of the time my imagination wasn't up to the task. I would have frightened myself out of doing some of the most worthwhile things I've ever done. :)

[curia-regis.livejournal.com]

My imagination is doing a pretty good job of describing to me the tasks of parenthood. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be up to the ordeal! Plus, I've never had any sort of interest in babies or small children. I don't really find humans interesting until they are capable of grasping nuances in arguments. And that's generally not until at least the early teenage years!

I've also read ... fascinating sociological accounts on pregnancy and childbirth. *shudder* They're quite descriptive.

[haikujaguar.livejournal.com]

Ah well. Pregnancy only lasts nine months. It ends, thank goodness.

I am not a baby/children person either, and while I have always endeavored to be kind to children, I was never one of those people who fawn over babies or bounce over to pregnant women and congratulate them, etc.

Then I had my own and discovered that I really didn't know anything at all... about just about anything important. :)

And I do love my own child, and think she's the most adorable child ever. So one of my biggest mistakes was expecting to have a maternal instinct for someone else's child...!

[curia-regis.livejournal.com]

Hehe. Actually my mother told me something very similar a few days back. Except then a few sentences later, she told me how she refused to ever change my diaper because she found that gross. Not to mention, she basically didn't look after me during my first few years because she went back to work immediately and left me at my grandparent's house.

Pregnancy sounds like ... almost fun compared to looking after a child! I can't imagine having to get up at 4 am to change a diaper. Or having the responsibility of ensuring that another life is physically well as well as intellectually and emotionally stimulated. Not to mention I've read studies on how children tend to do better in life if they're looked after by stay-at-home parents who have an university education. :| I'm definitely not cut out for domestic life.

If I did have a child, I'd obviously want to give it the best opportunities in life. I just don't think, given the choice, I'd choose to do have a child.

All this sounds awfully selfish. *sigh*

What made you choose to have a child? (if you don't mind me asking) :)

[haikujaguar.livejournal.com]

To be honest, I knew from my youth that if I didn't have one, I'd never grow up. That I'd never truly be tempered by anything difficult... that the only hard situation I could create in my life by choice (rather than have it visited on me by circumstance) was to have a family and task myself with taking care of it. And that would be my crucible.

I was right.


I would not say that everyone should undertake this thus; you have to be willing to let it shape you and not resent it for changing you for it to have this benefit. But it is the hardest thing I've ever done in my life, and yes, it is changing me just as I had thought. The duty is more difficult than I had imagined in my wildest extrapolations... but the joys are vaster, and completely unanticipated. :)

[curia-regis.livejournal.com]

Ah. Whereas, I think there's always the chance I'd be an awful parent and end up shirking my responsibilities.

I personally feel that my choice in career will be my chance to grow as a person. I've chosen something that I can and hopefully will be passionate about.

What can I say? I have the makings of a workaholic!

[haikujaguar.livejournal.com]

Oh! You should not be so hard on yourself! You would probably not shirk something you knew was truly important. Most people don't. :)

What career have you chosen? It sounds exciting. :)

[nicked-metal.livejournal.com]

1) You're really not supposed to say things like that if you want that kind of job. Especially not in writing. Especially not in public.

2) I've heard that the physical is very difficult, you might want to add a gym membership to your studies.

Good luck, I hope it works out for you.

[curia-regis.livejournal.com]

Which probably doesn't sound that exciting to most people. :p