Tomorrow belongs, tomorrow belongs, tomorrow belongs to ME!

[fpb]

The morality, responsibility and consistency of those who voted for the winner may be gauged by the statement - which I have already encountered three or four times - that they "hope" that those of us who warned them against him were wrong.

Hope.

They have elected a politician to the most powerful post in the West based on what they hope he will prove.

Such appalling insouciance and irresponsibility is certain to be punished. God may delay His punishment for sin - often to the next world - but He never intermits anything to the punishment for stupidity, which is always paid, and paid strictly and with plenty of interest, here on Earth.

Comments

[un-crayon-rouge.livejournal.com]

Obvious differences between our beliefs aside, a vote is always an act of hope. There is never complete certainty.

And, let me add, I know at least three registered republicans on my friends list who voted for Obama because in good conscience they could not vote for McCain. The McCain of 2000, even 2004, yes, without a doubt. The McCain of this campaign, no. And they didn't abstain either, because they knew this was a pivotal moment for their country. Although not entirely sure of what Obama would or could do, they felt, after careful consideration, that it was at least a step in the right direction.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

Look, because three idiots who thought they were Republicans listened to the trash from the media about nice McCain suddenly turning into a monster, it does not mean that I should be quite so stupid. The characteristic of this election has been the fantastic mendacity and corruption of the mass media; and the only question for the future is whether, having made themselves into tools for Obama, they will continue to collaborate, or whether, when things begin to go wrong, they will turn on their former golden boy and tear him apart. My money is on the first option.

[un-crayon-rouge.livejournal.com]

Maybe they are biased. Maybe I am biased. Maybe you are biased. We all choose and filter our information, objective information is no longer possible. Complete objectivity and rationality cannot exist in this modern world.

We all have our opinions and beliefs and are glad when our government reflects those, because we naturally believe that when what we believe is right is sanctioned on a greater scale, the world, or at least our country, or at the very least small areas of it will become a better place. Not only for ourselves, but for other people too, who may have to be forced to what we believe is best for them.

And I really really really don't think my friends are stupid. They followed their conscience, and believe me, they were as well informed as a person can be. Their opinions and wishes in this instance just do no coincide with yours.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

Exactly. "They were as well informed as [they] could be", given the atrocious behaviour of the media. No sane or sensible choice may be made if the whole background is one of mendacity and illusion.

If you support Zapatero, of course this presidential choice will be to your liking. But even Zapatero will find out, as Clemenceau and Lloyd George did in 1919 to their chagrin and the misfortune of the whole world, that an ill-informed Democratic ideologue is infinitely harder and less sympathetic than the worst Republican scoundrel.

[un-crayon-rouge.livejournal.com]

Well, we can agree to this, at least: we will find out. And I can only hope (hah) that I will have the courage to look the truth in the face and accept the consequences if my present convictions should be proven wrong.

We all have our opinions and beliefs. Some are not rational beliefs, however

[johncwright.livejournal.com]

"Complete objectivity and rationality cannot exist in this modern world. "

If this is a biased an unobjective statement, we should disregard it as false.

If this is an objective and rational statement, it disproves itself.

In any case, no one ever trots out this tired argument except and unless he is attempting to excuse or explain away open dishonesty. The media in this election was opening, arrogantly, insolently dishonest.

To excuse open dishonest on the ground that perfect honesty is not available to sons of Adam is a strawman argument. The absence of perfection does not excuse vice. One does not excuse murder and rape on the grounds that no human being is perfectly free from anger and lust.

Forgive me for being blunt, but: Study logic. Learn to think. Your comments are embarrassing.

Re: We all have our opinions and beliefs. Some are not rational beliefs, however

[un-crayon-rouge.livejournal.com]

This was and is not a contest in logic. I didn't excuse anything. I conceded that the media and my friends may have been biased, and then proceeded to state an opinion. fpb accepted my comment for what it is and we concluded our conversation amiably. No need to barge in and flog a dead horse.

And why do murder and rape immediately show up as accusations in these type of discussions. "If you think like that, you might as well be condoning murder and rape." Well, I am not, and you know I am not, so who embarrassing themselves?

Re: We all have our opinions and beliefs. Some are not rational beliefs, however

[fpb.livejournal.com]

Actually, my attitude was more along the lines of "quitting the field in despair". I knew already that you would be rejoicing, since you also regard Zapatero as a good thing, and I said nothing more because I regarded it as a waste of time. But if John is willing to point out that your arguments are unreasonable, I certainly see no reason to stop him.

Re: We all have our opinions and beliefs. Some are not rational beliefs, however

[un-crayon-rouge.livejournal.com]

Aw man, and here I thought I had managed to get my opinion out and STILL not get in a fight with you! ;-) Too much to wish for, I know.

I DID, however, say that I would at least try own up to my error if time proved me wrong. And I think you know I meant it. I was curious to see if you could agree to the same.

Re: We all have our opinions and beliefs. Some are not rational beliefs, however

[fpb.livejournal.com]

If you had any confidence in my honesty you would not ask such a question; if not, you will not know that I will ever admit a mistake merely because I say so. At any rate, you are not answering John's point, which is that you defended open and brutal dishonesty by the media on the supposed grounds that we are all imperfect. And frankly, as I do not feel that my occasional bursts of anger justify murder in others, so I do not feel that my conscious or unconscious bias can justify the open and conscious manipulation of a whole country by a downright, deliberate and coordinated campaign of open lies. This is what you said. John finds it unacceptable and so do I. It also, to get back to my original point, makes nonsense of any expectation of honesty: if you think it natural for human beings to behave as the media have behaved, then there is no point whatsoever in even suggesting that I might want to be honest on something on which I have to some extent staked my reputation.

Re: We all have our opinions and beliefs. Some are not rational beliefs, however

[un-crayon-rouge.livejournal.com]

You are so good at this. Jesus.

I never said I thought what the media did was justified, or good, or right. I just stated my personal belief that an unbiased opinion is not possible in the world we live in right now. Which doesn't mean we shouldn't try our very best to come as close as possible to our own standards of not being biased, which standards, again, may differ.

It is, of course, entirely possible, even probable, that my logic is flawed. By no means do I wish to convince you of anything I might believe through the mere force of logic. I am completely aware that my perception of the whole election HAS been biased, and therefore I accept that I may be wrong in my beliefs, and that Obama may prove incompetent or even dangerous.

I only resented you calling my friends, whom I personally admire a great deal, stupid. But I won't hold it against you :-)

Re: We all have our opinions and beliefs. Some are not rational beliefs, however

[fpb.livejournal.com]

I take back my comment on your friends, whom I do not know. I had no right to say what I said. However, I regard this election as a disaster mitigated only by he fact that I have long wished Europe to escape American protection and become an independent power, and that if half of what I fear comes true, they will be forced to do so whether they want to or not.

Re: We all have our opinions and beliefs. Some are not rational beliefs, however

[jordan179.livejournal.com]

However, I regard this election as a disaster mitigated only by the fact that I have long wished Europe to escape American protection and become an independent power, and that if half of what I fear comes true, they will be forced to do so whether they want to or not.

I agree with you and see this also as a silver lining both for America and Europe. America foolishly tried to prevent the return of European Powers to Great Power status in 1956 when we betrayed Britain and France in the Suez Crisis. The result has been that the European states have developed a very immature and coddled concept of defense and diplomacy, one which now leads them to engage in and urge upon us the most naive, self-destructive, and short-term kinds of actions. This is because, under American protection, they have so far suffered little for their own follies -- though with the EU's desire to admit large numbers of hostile Muslim immigrants, this is starting to change.

The Soviet Union fell in 1989. There is no longer any particular reason for the European Powers to be dependent upon America for their defense. Indeed, modern Russia is so weak that the EU, or an alliance of EU Powers, could easily check Russian ambitions with purely European forces.

Obama's feckless Administration will be very likely to drop the ball on all sorts of foreign crises, and it may be gradually bourne upon the Europeans that they can't count on anyone but themselves for their own defense. At this point, I see European defense and foreign policy turning sharply to the right. I could even see the beginnings, within a decade or so, of the recolonization by Europe of at least North Africa, owing to the gradual realization that the North African states have failed and become hopeless dens of terrorism.

I do not believe that America and Europe have any differences sharp enough to be likely causes of war. For this reason, I would welcome a more powerful and realistic Europe, regardless of what form its ultimate union takes (I see good reason for pessimism about the survival of the EU in its current form).

And this is the one good thing that could come from a feckless American Administration in 2009-13.