Provincial idiocy

[fpb]

MEMO: To all American conservatives.

If you want to get anywhere with anyone, you have to get the hell out of your own ignorance comfort zone. To wit, you have to stop talking as though everything that can be called socialism must, by that alone, be the same thing as the perversions of Lenin and Mao. Every European democracy has experienced decades of Socialist (Social Democrat or Labour, if you prefer) rule, and while I have nothing but contempt for such people as Zapatero of Spain or the Norwegian Labour Party, only the most moronic of ignorami could possibly equate them with the murderous rabble that tore Russia apart long ago and feasted upon Cambodia's blood. That sort of talk, which is universal in American conservative circles, makes it simpy impossible for Americans to understand Europe; even those among us who voted for Berlusconi, Merkel, Sarkozy or Aznar would laugh in the face of any American who insisted - as you people happily insist to each other, taking irresponsible pleasure in reinforcing each other's ignorance and prejudice - that even Zapatero is anything comparable to a tyrant. Worse still if, God help you, you take the suggestions I have seriously seen them waved about the blogosphere, that tyrants such as Salazar or Pinochet are better than democratically elected socialists - even if incompetent. If you insist on this sort of talk, I can promise you that you will remain nothing but bogeymen and hate figures to all Europeans, including conservatives, and most if not all citizens of democratic countries from India to Japan and from Argentina to Canada. America is the only democracy in the world in which it is assumed that a socialist cannot be a democrat. This is an instance, not of democracy, but of provinciality and groupthink. And I do not have to have any sympathy for socialists to say so: all I need is a little common sense.

Comments

[redcoast.livejournal.com]

Well by that logic you should include some of those seizure-inducing pictures with it.

[redcoast.livejournal.com]

It's not a big deal to me, just that every time I try to read past the first sentence my mind wanders. I think I get the idea. You're mad at American conservatives who call Obama a socialist?

[fpb.livejournal.com]

On the contrary. Obama is a social democrat with a social democratic political project, and ought to be able to push it without all the idiots in creation talking as if he is going to open the gulags. He wants Americans to have similar services to Europeans and Japanese and does not see why that should be regarded a sin. I am suggesting that the American right should start becoming acquainted with the rest of the universe, instead of looking for votes among the declining fanaticism of creationism.

[cette-vie.livejournal.com]

Yes. Yes, basically, yes.

[redcoast.livejournal.com]

"Socialism" just means something different in America. We had the Cold War and shit.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

You were not alive when it was around. I lived in a country that had a border with a Communist country and served in an army that was intended to stop that border in case of Communist invasion. I also lived through a period of intense Communist terrorism. Finally, Italy had and still has a vast law-abiding Communist movement (as distinct from underground Communist terrorists). That is how I know I know the difference between Communists - even personally nice Communists - and Social Democrats. And when American bloggers speak as though Zapatero or Segolene Royale or the Swedish Socialists were one and the same as the creatures who ran the Soviet Union, I am disgusted at the ignorance.

[mindstalk.livejournal.com]

Europe also had the Cold War. NATO, Berlin Wall, split Germany, forcibly neutral Austria, tactical nukes deployed on the ground, tanks over some borders, Eastern Europe being under Soviet control. Those Soviet nukes weren't all pointed at the US.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

As I said - I served in the Italian army when the Italian army was part of NATO and staring down the barrel of a lot of Soviet guns. In case of war, we would have had to hold the mountains and plains of north-eastern Italy and possibly advance into Yugoslavia and Austria if the Warsaw Pact violated the neutrality of those countries - which was taken practically for granted. And I lived through the long period of Communist terrorism in my country, which has not even now altogether died out. Don't tell me about the Cold War; I was there. And I happen to know that almost every Social Democrat in Europe was a sworn enemy of Russian Communism.

[mindstalk.livejournal.com]

Way I'd put it: either 'socialism' is Soviet-bad, in which case Obama is not a socialist and neither is any European government, or Obama is a 'socialist' a la Europe in which case socialism is not that bad, let alone Soviet-bad. Because whatever moral qualms conservatives might have about Eurosocialism, the statistical picture is pretty good, with income/capita, life expectancy, life expectancy/$health, social mobility, and innovation comparable or superior to the stats of the US.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

I made that point to johncwright, who is not even as bad as some. His answer? That statistics mean nothing (until he has had the opportunity to "interpret" and "revise" them to his heart's content.)

[baduin.livejournal.com]

It is always fun to see a Liberarian and a Socialist fighting.

I once had to take care of a cat; she loved fighting with that second cat hiding in the mirror. But she, mirabile dictu, were never able to win, because the mirror-cat was mirroring each her movement.

Similarly, libertarians are unable to notice that that second cat in the mirror is themselves. The social disruption caused by the free-market economy makes the welfare state necessary.

On the other hand, you CAN have socialism without free market. This is the option of having only the mirror-cat. But such a smoke-and-mirrors economy is utterly unable to provide any products on our side of the looking glass.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

So I'm a socialist. Explain it to the guys who wrote in my Wiki entry that I was one of the best-known conservatives in HP fandom. Really, have you never heard of what ASS-U-ME makes?

[baduin.livejournal.com]

And why a conservative shouldn't be a socialist? (In the same meaning as that in your entry.) I do not see any contradiction there. There are countries where the conservative party is socialist, and liberals support free market.

[mindstalk.livejournal.com]

I think I'd missed that.

True Reason is not shackled by the inconvenience of mere evidence! I'm tempted to make snarky comments about Aristotleians and Platonists, but that might be rude.