And so it goes...

[fpb]

I thought to insulate people who were not up to it from the shock of my opinions on a couple of matters; and the very fact that I announced it led directly to it breaking down. It was a reaction to it that caused the response that became my last post. Apparently I cannot manage to avoid controversy even if I try. Well, so be it. As it is now, I doubt whether I will ever use the Credenti group again.

Comments

Re: And now that I have calmed down (unlike you)...

[nicked-metal.livejournal.com]

I am divorced, and really quite amicably so.

And yet, when two people have promised to spend the rest of their lives together, the collapse of that promise is something that really should cause both parties involved a profound sadness, and 'misery' is a good word for it. Happy divorced people? Sure, they exist. But if you can walk away from someone who you loved and promised to spend your life with without misery, then I would have to agree with fpb - either you're lying, or you were never serious about the promise.

Having said that, I contemplated the possibility of divorce during my wedding ceremony, and I got married anyway. I recognized divorce as preferable to the horrors that people can inflict on each other when they are trapped together.

It is possible to be happy and divorced. And divorce is (by definition) liberating, and that can be quite positive. But if it doesn't break your heart, it's because your heart wasn't committed to the marriage.

Re: And now that I have calmed down (unlike you)...

[mindstalk.livejournal.com]

Well, I can't say that the divorces themselves might not have had misery for my parents. But though I didn't quote it in full, I was more responding to

even people who have made each other miserable for decades - and they do exist and I have seen them - get no relief whatever from the supposed clean break. Separation may be necessary; it is never clean, never pleasant, and hardly ever, long term, even a relief.

To claim divorce is never or hardly ever a relief? *That's* defining reality away, as I see it. So I think you and I would agree on the substantive point here.

Re: And now that I have calmed down (unlike you)...

[fpb.livejournal.com]

Oh, right. The sick man claims in a thin, reedy voice, while he is shaking all over, his skin purplish and clammy, that he never felt better; and you take him at his word. I used to do that, too, till I started noticing the symptoms. I do not mean to say that there can be people who bury their loss so deep that they forget about it, but if you were able to destroy the primary relationship in your life without misery, then it was not the primary relationship in your life - end of story.

Falling in love is not for everyone. There are many people who have never experienced it, and perhaps never will. But if you meet the real thing, you will not mistake it for anything else, and you certainly will not believe that it can go away as if it had never been.

Re: And now that I have calmed down (unlike you)...

[mindstalk.livejournal.com]

But marriage has often not been about love, instead being about family alliances, or parental judgement that the arranged marriage will be conducive to contentment and stability (and hence, grandchildren).

And if the person one had thought to be a true love turns out to have been an abusive liar, the divorce may be accompanied by misery *and* relief. Misery for what has been lost -- but that would have been lost without the divorce. Relief for what is escaped.

Re: And now that I have calmed down (unlike you)...

[fpb.livejournal.com]

You are both bringing in individual cases - which is no way to argue about universals - and trivializing them. It may sound strange to the modern mind, molded by media campaigns and manipulative dichotomizing, that a person may both be a lover and an abusive monster, but to anyone who has any idea what fallen man is and what depths they can sink to - and still keep the touch of the divine in their nature, however perverted - it is not even very hard to understand. By the same token, "loving the abuser" is treated as an incomprehensible conundrum only by very naive people. Transfer it to your country, and it becomes easier to understand. It was not an uncritical patriot, but a man who was at war with the institutions of his own native land, who gave the beautiful title "Cry, The Beloved Country" to his book. Nobody ever loves one's nation more than exiles and rebels.

Re: And now that I have calmed down (unlike you)...

[mentalguy.livejournal.com]

But marriage has often not been about love, instead being about family alliances, or parental judgement that the arranged marriage will be conducive to contentment and stability (and hence, grandchildren).

Back up a moment. I thought we were talking about divorce in the modern West?

Re: And now that I have calmed down (unlike you)...

[fpb.livejournal.com]

As a matter of fact, here I disagree with you. If we are arguing about what is archetype and what is ectype, then it is legitimate to consider all the historical manifestations.