Some of these atheists really take things too seriously

[fpb]

So I happened to repeat an observation made several times before by many other people, and that is at any case not to be taken in total earnest (evidence for the existence of God can be sought in slightly more fundamental areas): that atheists with a taste for fine things are unlucky, because they have nobody to be grateful to for them. Suddenly a couple of atheists have me in a death grip all over my page, and, through a fog of misunderstandings, misexplainations, and one or two downright lies, they are trying to - I don't quite know, but do some damage to my statement one way or another. Folks, whether or not you are as bad at philosophy as I think you are, don't you think you ought to find more serious things (including, yes, more serious statements from me) to get intense about?

Comments

[jordan179.livejournal.com]

I can be grateful to the Universe for being such a beautiful one, can't I? :)

[fpb.livejournal.com]

Let me see. As compared to what? We only know one universe. And at any rate, to be grateful to the universe as a whole is more than half way through, emotionally speaking, to being grateful to God. The very assumption that the totality of things that exist can be addressed, perceived, and emotionally experienced as a totality, as a unity, goes well beyond any materialism, for it places upon mere matter an overarching unitary conception that almost begs to be developed into a metaphysic. But that is not philosophy, only psychology.

[jordan179.livejournal.com]

As compared to what? We only know one universe.

The thought has occurred to me too. But the Universe is big and bright and beautiful enough that from my human viewpoint, it is a very lovely thing indeed.

And at any rate, to be grateful to the universe as a whole is more than half way through, emotionally speaking, to being grateful to God.

The existence of the Universe implies many things. A sapient Creator who can be personally communicated with is not one of them, however.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

I did not say that it is all the way to it, and I did not say that it was a logical procedure.

[mentalguy.livejournal.com]

The universe is not actually a person, which one could be grateful to, is it?

[mentalguy.livejournal.com]

I don't, by the way, mean to invalidate your feelings of gratitude -- they are yours to have, and really, isn't it right to have feelings of gratitude for beauty? But I do hope it prompts some thinking about the object of those feelings.

[inverarity.livejournal.com]

I managed not to succumb to temptation with regard to that post. But I have to say that it came off as extremely condescending, and frankly I saw it as an attempt to bait atheists. You really shouldn't be surprised that some took the bait.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

Dare I say I hoped for some slightly funnier responses?

[inverarity.livejournal.com]

Actually, the responses you got seem pretty reasonable (and sometimes humorous) to me. You're the one getting angry and indignant.

I somehow doubt your sense of humor would remain intact if someone posted something that was mildly disparaging of Catholics.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

Try me. I probably know more anti-clerical stories than you do. And coming from Rome, I know all the real dirt.

And the statement is not only humorous, it is old. It has been repeated by many people before me.

[inverarity.livejournal.com]

Yeah, and they were wrong, too. :P

[fpb.livejournal.com]

I see. You have been outside the universe and found no God there. Now that must have been an interesting journey. I wish you would write about it some time.

[inverarity.livejournal.com]

See, you can't take a flippant remark as anything other than a serious challenge to debate, and then you complain about atheists taking your flippant remarks seriously.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

I was trying to lighten up the mood, and I get pecked for it. Well, birdie, next time best hold on to your feathers.

Wouldn't it have been better just to brag about the wonders you would perform as soon as you started to write your account?

[mentalguy.livejournal.com]

If you meant to lighten up the mood, I think at the very least a smiley might have helped in that case...

Oh, Mr. Barbieri

[botticelli-s.livejournal.com]

I share your chagrin. I have met atheists with a sense of humor, but evidently these are not them.

For heaven's sake (yeah) lighten up, atheists. :^)

See, there's a smiley.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

I might write them as stories, one day. But where is the time?

[fpb.livejournal.com]

Mh, I wonder what you are talking about, now.

Are you engaged in some new and interesting pursuit? 8-)

[botticelli-s.livejournal.com]

My wife (you may recall, the one who looks like Rafaella Carra') attended La Sapienza and lived in Rome for many years. She's got some real hair-raisers to tell. It's simply more evidence of how high Christianity sets the bar, and of the need for mercy and grace. Not that that would impress any of your interlocutors.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

For anyone who wants to know, "La Sapienza" is the first State University of Rome (Rome has probably more universities than any other city, what with one or two dozen Papal universities, three state ones, and four or five private institutions, but La Sapienza is as large as all the rest put together). Raffaella Carra' is a blonde, long-legged showgirl who has dominated Italian TV for forty years and is still singing and dancing in her sixties. If this gentleman's wife resembles her, that seems to guarantee that she is both attractive and energetic.

[mentalguy.livejournal.com]

I did get the sense that you missed the point of some of the initial comments, though the threads quickly spun off in various other directions.

Why not be grateful to Clapton for e.g. deciding to practice his craft, or record the album? There are some aspects of it which one could legitimately be grateful to him or his teachers etc. for. Of course those aspects are nowhere near all of it, but I would not say that the door is closed to gratitude completely for an atheist.

Of course once we get into being "grateful to the universe", that is just an anthropomorphism and cannot actually be gratitude as to a person.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

Up to a point. But when you are actually being blown away by - in this particular case - his live performance during the concert for Bob Dylan's thirtieth anniversary, that seems to me to miss something. And it stood out in my view just because that particular concert featured so many great musicians and half a dozen of the greatest guitars in the world - and STILL Clapton stood out.

[mentalguy.livejournal.com]

But when you are actually being blown away by - in this particular case - his live performance during the concert for Bob Dylan's thirtieth anniversary

The other posters hadn't even necessarily seen the concert, though, and I'm not even sure it's the case that everyone has necessarily had that kind of transcendent artistic experience in their lives. A lighthearted post prompted by a subjective experience probably isn't the place to stand or die on philosophy if people aren't "getting" it.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

It happened. And if you poke your head out to johncwright's blog, you may notice that there was a much more fierce clash going on about the issue of health care. Altogether I have had an interesting evening.

[mentalguy.livejournal.com]

I think it may be better if I don't give my opinion on the health care thread here. :)

[fpb.livejournal.com]

I am finished anyway - I am not going to touch that thread again.

Actually, let me enlarge that...

[fpb.livejournal.com]

...I will not touch any thread that a certain female appears in. There are things that sane people do not inflict on themselves.

Re: Actually, let me enlarge that...

[mentalguy.livejournal.com]

There are things that sane people do not inflict on themselves.

I think that might more broadly include insisting on having the last word in a thread on health care. :)

Re: Actually, let me enlarge that...

[fpb.livejournal.com]

I tried to disengage, but I could not let someone have the last word when that last word amounted to a positive lie about everything I believe and stand for. I was even asked whether I sympathized with euthanasia, for pity's sake! How can anyone leave things like that unanswered, especially knowing the kind of lies that already circulate in great herds about fandom?

Re: Actually, let me enlarge that...

[mentalguy.livejournal.com]

Fair point. And I actually read the thread in its entirety now; it is more productive than the early sampling I had read had lead me to believe.

Re: Actually, let me enlarge that...

[fpb.livejournal.com]

It was going somewhere, until a certain female butted in. After which, I was too revolted to go on.

just out of curiosity

[shelestel.livejournal.com]

whether I sympathized with euthanasia

...Do you?

Re: just out of curiosity

[fpb.livejournal.com]

Thou shalt not kill.

Whatever you have done for the least of these, you have done to Me.

Re: just out of curiosity

[shelestel.livejournal.com]

Interesting. Do you also oppose people who help people who can communicate their wish to die die?

Re: just out of curiosity

[fpb.livejournal.com]

Ah, in that case we are talking about cowardice. I never thought it was a moral virtue or that it needed to be encouraged. As it happens, I am marginally involved in the disabled movement, and I regard this kind of filth as an excuse to get rid of disabled people by making them feel useless and a burden.

Re: just out of curiosity

[shelestel.livejournal.com]

Do you deny the fact that there are people who have to cope with tremendous amounts of pain that has nothing to do with others making them feel useless, and who may in some cases (such as if there is no hope for improvement) wish to put an end to it? Is it this you call cowardice?

Re: just out of curiosity

[fpb.livejournal.com]

Wherever I hear a person feeling that their life is not worth living, I hear the echo of someone else's selfishness. "Whatever you have done to the least of these you have done to Me" includes "Any time you have allowed or encouraged one of these to feel that the life I gave is not worth living, you have nailed Me to the cross again - and spat in My face for good measure."

Re: just out of curiosity

[shelestel.livejournal.com]

Does it mean that whenever you hear someone saying that someone else's life is worth living you do not hear any selfishness?

I don't understand. You see a terminally ill patient who depends on technology or drugs to keep them formally alive - a life not even remotely resembling the one they used to have - and you see some other people's selfish interest to get rid of the person?

I couldn't understand the relevance of the stories.

Re: just out of curiosity

[fpb.livejournal.com]

If you did not understand the point of the story of a woman who died of cancer with her whole life unfulfilled, and still managed to spread light and love and courage around her, I might as well stop wasting my time. You will never get it.

Re: just out of curiosity

[shelestel.livejournal.com]

Say, do you notice how seldom you address anything I say directly, at face value?

And with the story and the bio - I did not read them carefully, because they are long and because last time you sent me to read an essay of yours I did so, and it proved to be of little relevance, with the relevant part included in less than a paragraph. Then I didn't mind spending the time. Now I do.

Re: just out of curiosity

[fpb.livejournal.com]

That is because you use ideas as weapons, to defeat enemies. Not as things worth entertaining for their own sake. It is always a search for the case that will contradict or break what I am saying. And as it happens I have heard them all before. My reaction to any defence of euthanasia is very simple: keep your filthy hands off the old and sick or I'll duff you up. I do not intend to prove anything to you, since I have long since concluded that you do not intend to have anything proved to. Quite simply, and quite practically, I stand against it and I regard it as filth. That is all you need to know, to know how to deal with me on this matter.

Re: just out of curiosity

[fpb.livejournal.com]

This little story is about a real person:
http://fpb.livejournal.com/397404.html

And this is the real person:
http://fpb.livejournal.com/375817.html