Since I owe Hijja an apology,I had better rmake it in public

[fpb]

I charged Hijja with saying that the Catholic Church began in 1521 - that is, with the Lutheran schism; implying that the entity that existed before then was different in essence from the one that exists now. I have now looked it up and realized that she did not in fact say that. Mind you, what she said - that the Church before Luther was "the universal Church," meaning undivided - is pretty nearly as wrong. Three great schisms had sliced the East away from her: the Nestorian schism, which lost Persia and missionary areas as far as China and possibly even Japan; the Monophysite, which lost Egypt, Ethiopia, Syria, Armenia and a missionary field reaching to India; and the Orthodox, which drove her out of the Greek and Russian lands, much of Eastern Europe, and most of the surviving Catholic communities in the Muslim East. For a long time it cannot even be said that the Catholic Church was necessarily the largest Christian Church. But at least it is not quite as bad as to imagine that the distinctive Catholic identity only began with Luther.

I would still like to see KH writing a love story, however.

Comments

[dreamer-marie.livejournal.com]

That's two more pre-Protestantism schisms than I had ever heard of. At least, when you're arguing with Kenna Hijja, other people learn stuff :-)

[fpb.livejournal.com]

The last Nestorians are the Chaldeans of Iran and Iraq, who now have a sizeable emigrant community in the US; they were a great church till Tamerlaine slaughtered them from Anatolia to India and Turkestan. The Coptic Churches of Egypt, Ethiopia and Eritrea, the Armenian Church, and the small Jacobite Church of Syria are Monophysite - though they reject the description. The Coptic Patriarch of Antioch is the only person besides the Patriarch of Rome who can claim the title of Pope.

[goreism.livejournal.com]

Patriarch of Alexandria, actually. Shenouda III. The Copts haven't got a Patriarch of Antioch. There are also the autocephalous Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church, and the autonomous Malankara Jacobite Syriac Orthodox Church in India.

I think Fr. V. C. Samuel's The Council of Chalcedon Re-examined is probably one of the best treatments over the issue of how Monophysite the Oriental Orthodox are (they're certainly not Eutychian).

[fpb.livejournal.com]

OUCH!!! Bloody Hell, of course you are right. How did that happen at all? Of course I know it is Alexandria and about Pope Shenouda. And I know that they reject the description of Monophysites - all except the Ethiopians, who, according to a website I read, take pride in it. But to deal with the doctrinal dissensions between Catholics, Orthodox and Copts, and with the language problems involved, is, a) beond my powers, and, b) way too much for one short comment.

[goreism.livejournal.com]

It seems the "Nestorians" and "Monophysites" might not be quite as Nestorian or Monophysite as we had once assumed. You've got back something like 75% of the Chaldeans anyway, at this point. They've got an interesting history, that lot have.

But if the Church is the Catholic Church (or subsists in, if you like), then saying that the Church is undivided is a tautology, surely?

[fpb.livejournal.com]

It depends. The fact that the Catholic Church acknowledges the validity of all baptisms carried out "in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit," means that there are hundreds of millions of Christians who are not in communion with the undivided Church. On the other hand, you cannot speak of one Church when doctrine is different, authority is different, and in most (Protestant) cases, most Sacraments are not even recognized. The Catholic Church does regard itself as the One Church which Jesus founded, but it does not regard other Christians as outside the Christian community.

[goreism.livejournal.com]

Not all baptisms, apparently... the Mormon baptisms are said to be invalid due to lack of proper intent, though the form is there.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

Yes. In fact, I believe that no major Christian denomination accepts the Mormons as Christian at all. Their theology is too different.

[kennahijja.livejournal.com]

Phew! I know I'm prone to shoot my mouth of in heated moments, but I'm glad I never went so far astray. Am *so* happy there won't have to be Harry/Ginny fluff as reparations ;). But will think about love story - that's the one genre giving me hell (though Cat&Star came close...).

And yes, I should have said 'the dominant church in the west 'til 15whatnot'. But... see above about 'heat of the moment' and 'shooting my mouth off'... *blushes*

[gunderpants.livejournal.com]

I think you and Kennahijja ought have some scheduled duel every week so you can duke it out and kill everyone in the general vicinity with your combined smartness.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

Heh. Not unlikely. Bear in mind, however, that we are both culture historians - in other fields, for instance, one Dreamer Marie could murder fifty of us both.

[gunderpants.livejournal.com]

It's all right. Rest assured that you'll outstrip me in every area, but I can play the triangle really well.

[bufo-viridis.livejournal.com]

the Nestorian schism, which lost Persia and missionary areas as far as China
Of course Nestorian schism has Weakened the Catholic Church, so it may be said that it lacked resources for more intensive proselyzing in the east, but since the Nestorians reached China ca. 200 years after the schism, can it be said that this areas were "lost"? It was not as they belonged before and - for all their influence along the Silk Route - they were not exactly blocking it.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

Being based in Persia, and later in Baghdad, the Nestorians had roads open to them that the Catholic Church (which then included the future Orthodox areas) did not. Contact between Persia and China was constant and regular, to the extent that Zoroastrian mobeds had temples in China from the seventh century on - barely a century or two after the Todas brought in Buddhism. (Kind of makes you wonder what would have happened if the Todas had not conquered the North.) In point of fact, I seem to remember that the Nestorian entity was protected, by both Zoroastrian Shahs and Muslim Caliphs, exactly in an anti-Catholic - that is, anti-Roman - role.