After a friend printed a misguided defence of abortion (from her comments thread)

[fpb]

Rephrase your premise as follows:
I don't agree with abortions... but if they're going to happen (which they will), they need to be safe and legal.
I don't agree with rape... but if they're going to happen (which they will), they need to be safe and legal.
I don't agree with burglary... but if they're going to happen (which they will), they need to be safe and legal.
I don't agree with assault... but if they're going to happen (which they will), they need to be safe and legal.
I don't agree with embezzlement... but if they're going to happen (which they will), they need to be safe and legal.
I don't agree with fraud... but if they're going to happen (which they will), they need to be safe and legal.
I don't agree with forced marriage... but if they're going to happen (which they will), they need to be safe and legal.

etc., etc., etc.....

Excuse me, if something is wrong, why the Hell should it be safe and legal, only because "it's going to happen"? Crime is always "going to happen". That is the point of having laws. We do not have laws against something which, though wrong, is never going to happen (e.g. there is no law against stealing someone's soul). The point of having a law against it is to state that it is a disapproved and forbidden activity, and that, if you are caught (which, alas, will not always be the case), you will be punished. This trash about "it's going to happen anyway" is simply something that abortionists repeat ad nauseam, on the principle that if we hear a statement often enough we're going to take it for granted.

Comments

[prylliepwns.livejournal.com]

I applaud your right to your opinion, you know that. I even say that we can agree to disagree at times, and still respect your opinion.

But the topic of abortion is one that I cannot hold my tongue on. You are a male. And while males may have contributed half the bioligical components neccessary to conceive a child, they have not ever, nor will they ever be the body responsible for carrying said child. I have a strong opinion that if you do not have a uterus, you are not allowed to make decisions about what can and cannot be done with one.

I do not advocate late term abortions, nor do I believe that they should be performed after 16 weeks, unless in the case of the mother's life being in jeopardy if she continues to be pregnant, and the baby cannot survive outside of the womb. I personally have no idea what I would decide to do in that instance, but I know for a fact that I have no right deciding for anyone else what they should do. And neither do you.

You will never know what it's like to be pregnant, to have your life flash before your eyes and wonder if you're headed down a road of ruining an innocent child's life by bringing it into the world with you as a parent. You will never know what it's like to be raped and become pregnant from the encounter, nor will you ever know what it's like to be taken advantage of by a family member and have your child be the product of incest. I don't know what the latter two of these scenarios is like either, but I have had experience with the first one.

At the age of 18, I entered reluctantly and quite naively into a sexual relationship with someone I barely knew, and became pregnant. After several weeks of agonizing excruciatingly over what I should do, I chose to terminate my pregnancy. If this knowledge causes you to lose respect for me, or loathe my existence, or defriend me, so be it. But while I wish I had never had to make that decision in the first place, I don't regret having made it. It was the right choice for me in that time of my life. I would never in a million years deprive any other woman from the right to make the same decision I made.

And I must respectfully say that while I agree with your statement that "the point of having a law against it is to state that it is a disapproved and forbidden activity, and that, if you are caught (which, alas, will not always be the case), you will be punished", I do not believe that any laws that are passed making the performing or recieving of abortions illegal are for the betterment of society and/or the individual. The decision of whether or not to abort a pregnancy is a lengthy and difficult one that should be made with privacy to the woman, and not surrounded by controversy and degradation.

[headnoises.livejournal.com]

I have a strong opinion that if you do not have a uterus, you are not allowed to make decisions about what can and cannot be done with one.

As the daughter of a father, I denounce you as a sexist.

As the sister of a woman who lost a child, and whose husband was horribly hurt by that loss, I denounce you as sexist.

I say we DO have the right to say what people should do, when there is another's life on the line-- just as I am not allowed to kill those who inconvenience me outside of the womb, it should not be allowed to kill humans before birth.

There is a horrible, ugly irony to outlawing suicide, but allowing the killing of small humans at will.

Rape is a very rare factor in pregnancy. For that matter, if the idea of failing as a parent makes you want to kill the child, give the child away-- there are enough folks looking for a baby that the BFN newspaper in my folks' home town has an entire section for it.

As for the statement of incest-- how is death preferable to being inbred?

How is ANY source of birth worse than not being alive?

Many women have listened to folks who they SHOULD have been able to trust, and taken the "easy" way out. Easy in the short term-- in the long term, it tears folks apart. There are a ton of studies on suicides among those who had abortions, and other mental problems, so I won't butcher the information here.

I found it rather telling that the Roe of Roe v Wade is now a pro-life activist.

All of the pro-life groups I know have areas dedicated to helping folks who were scared and made a bad choice. Do a search for "post abortion counseling" and see if there's someone who you can talk to--if you have a desire.
Most of them are Christian. That means that they will tell you that you did do wrong, but you can be forgiven. There is NOTHING in existence that cannot be forgiven, if you truly repent.

For what it is worth? My first relationship, alone and lonely and far from home, was with a guy who used me for my body. Luckily, I bored him before I became pregnant or had other complications. Two other men followed, who also used me for their desires, because I was lonely and vulnerable---although I managed to avoid letting them use me as fully.
I *did* have frights.
I *did* consider what I would do, if I was with child.
I ended up where I started--my mom was a teacher with a major in animal husbandry; I understood reproduction (at least as far as a fetus and birth are involved) before I connected it to "where babies come from." I could NOT make myself believe-- in the way a lot of folks who don't have my background are able-- that a fetus isn't human, or isn't "really" alive.
Thus, I had to face the fact that I was considering the MURDER of my own child. The medical slaughter of the blood of my blood. It was amazingly effective.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

Whew! This thread has taken a life of its own. headnoises, I agree with you, of course, but I wish you had started your post in a less aggressive way. "I denounce you..." - does that sound like a way to get someone else to agree? What is wrong with: "if we grant point one, and if we grant point two, surely you must see that the argument you make is sexist"? I am not the right person to pass this on, but you should remember that a person who is not stupid can make a stupid statement, that a person who is not cheap or vulgar can make a cheap statement or perform a vulgar act.

I am being a bit selfish, here, too. prylliepwns is my friend, and I do not want to risk losing her because, if she visits my LJ, she runs the risk of being mauled by people who disagree with her. I am and have long been perfectly well aware that she disagrees with me on this issue, and I still am fond of her. I hope one day she may change her mind, but please bear in mind that this is an issue where people bear very strong and very personal feelings. It may interest you that she is the mother of two or three, I am not sure which, young children. So, even if you want to argue on my side, please argue in such a way as not to insult your opponent. I repeat: I know that I am not the best person to deliver this omily; but then, I can as much bear witness to its truth as a drunkard to the ruinousness of alcohol.

[headnoises.livejournal.com]

Yes, I do reply rather strongly-- mostly because it infurates me to see someone trying to block others from even having a view, just because they're the wrong sex. I'd react just as strongly if someone tried to argue that women could NOT have a view on abortion, because self-intrest made them unable to be objective.

I will hold back in the future on your blog, though.

[jezreelite.livejournal.com]

How is ANY source of birth worse than not being alive?

[headnoises.livejournal.com]

http://www.hawking.org.uk/home/hindex.html
http://encarta.msn.com/media_461519079/stephen_william_hawking.html

And nevermind that most children are aborted so their "lives" won't be so horrible, not because of any deformity.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

So, to this creature, being born ugly is worse than not being born. I am sorry I banned it already, because if I had got to this first, I would have had a few more things to say. Vicious, evil little piece of slime - and what a fine argument for retroactive abortion.

[headnoises.livejournal.com]

FPB, I thank you for the honor of knowing that others know I would NEVER be dishonored by the response to such scum that think that "ugly" is worse than "dead".

May they suffer a thousand scaring accidents.

May they suffer a thousand acne-induced bad face-days.

As my (non-Catholic) husband states, may they realize that no moral has a right to choose who lives and who dies.

[culturalnomad.livejournal.com]

"I have a strong opinion that if you do not have a uterus, you are not allowed to make decisions about what can and cannot be done with one."

I don't have the statistics handy. I wish I did, because I realise that what I have to say will be weaker without them, but I'm afraid if I wait until I have time to search for them I will have lost the opportune moment in this debate.

Although I often hear the argument you (prylliepwns) put forward, I have also read -- not just once, but numerous times -- that statistically by far the majority of "Pro-Life" people are women, while, conversely, the greatest numbers of supporters of the pro-abortion position (I will not dignify it by calling it "pro-choice") are men. Getting rid of the unborn child makes it easier for the father to avoid taking responsibility what has happened. Many women who have abortions do so because of the pressure from the boyfriend or husband who finds the idea of his wife or girlfriend having his child even more inconvenient to his prospects than the pregnancy is to hers.

[headnoises.livejournal.com]

Another statistic: the leading cause of death in pregnant women is the man who made her pregnant.

"Pro-life" sounds better and better.....

[fpb.livejournal.com]

Or from their family. Debbie was thrown out of her father's house when she was sixteen because she would not get an abortion.

[culturalnomad.livejournal.com]

I strongly suspect that many (perhaps most) abortions are carried out more because of pressure from someone else than because this is what the woman herself would choose if free from such pressure. But I think the statistic that most "pro-life" people are women, and most pro-abortion people are men is particularly significant here as a counter to prylliepwns's insistance that only someone with a uterus has a right to an opinion on this subject. Now if only I could track down the actual statistic and its source. . . ! I have heard it several times in various contexts.