defriendings

[fpb]

I have defriended asakiyume and sartorias over their repulsive reaction to the defeat of their party on Proposition 8 in California. Their reaction was to blame it all on the supposed interference of a particular religious group. The truth, in fact, is that all major religious groups in the state campaigned aggressively for the proposition, and that voters against it included a large majority of black voters. However, to blame Catholics is unfashionable, to blame Jews un-PC, and to blame Muslims unhealthy. So these ladies, in common it seems with a lot of their kind of persons, managed to find the perfect novel religious scapegoats: the Mormons. Now I have no sympathy for Mormonism as a religion, but I can tell scapegoating when it offends my nostrils, and I was utterly revolted to find people whom I really believed decent human beings indulge in this kind of talk. Any other person on my f-list subscribing to Mormon conspiracy theories, please defriend yourselves and save yourselves some grief.

Comments

[8bitbard.livejournal.com]

Calls for legislation against the Mormons have already begun: http://lds501c3.wordpress.com/

I expect many churches to be bankrupted or at least seriously damaged in the coming decades over such matters. All hail Progress. None shall defy.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

This from the same state that tolerates the really evil and damaging cult of Scientology. Really, trouble with one's backside or vagina leads you to do strange things.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

In fact, now that you have a "community organizer" in the White House with the sinister figure of Rahm Emanuel by his side, you can expect the action to flow right from the top. We are going to get some serious Separation of Church and State here, folks! As in, the Church on the moon, and the State in full charge. Watch priests being taken to federal prison for the coming federal crime of refusing to "marry" homosexuals. Well, at least my former friends will be happy.

[8bitbard.livejournal.com]

And expect Catholic hospitals to be shut down under FOCA. All hail Progress. None shall defy.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

Oh no. You forget the devotion to duty of Catholic administrators and university leaders. Greater love hath no man than this, that he should lay down his God for his career. And a nice touch of holy water after your abortion, madam?

[fpb.livejournal.com]

Freedom Of Choice Act, which Obama promised to sign as soon as he is in office. Removes every possible obstacle to abortion up to the ninth month, including parental notification or conscientious objection, makes abortion free at taxpayer expense, and protects abortionists from criticism. It would for all practical purposes outlaw every possible way to resist abortion.

[tekalynn.livejournal.com]

No church will, or should, be forced to marry people against their principles. Legal same-sex marriage will not mandate churches to do so. These marriages will be civil ceremonies only, which grant the legal protections of marriage from the state as they already do for heterosexual couples.

[8bitbard.livejournal.com]

You're right about the "should" part, but as for the "will" part - well, just take a look at Canada.

[tekalynn.livejournal.com]

Thank you for letting me know. I had not realized that.

[8bitbard.livejournal.com]

Here are some details: http://ezralevant.com/2008/10/alberta-hrc-christians-have-no.html

I haven't yet heard of clergymen being forced to perform gay ceremonies, but they have been forced to shut up or pay the price, which is hardly any different.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

I see you still believe in fables.

[stigandnasty919.livejournal.com]

Fabio, apologies if you have been through this before, but I would be interested in knowing if you object to the use of the word Marriage or the recognition of gay partnerships in social terms.

To my mind marriage is a religious sacrament which has secular advantages and responsibilites attached to it by the state. It is therefore for the churches to make their own decisions on who can and who cannot get married.

Should the state wish to provide the same, or a sub-set, of the secular advantages and responsibilities to unmarried couples then that is a matter for the state. That is why I would support Civil Partnerships allowing the same tax, insurance and inheritance rights to gay couples or hetrosexual couples who do not want to go through the sacrament of marriage. I personally feel that there should be additional tax advantages given to those couples who bring up children, married or not, simply because in the end we will all depend on those children to pay for our pensions and health services once we retire.

Marriage I would leave up to Churches.

To be fair to the ladies you mention here, it appears than the Morman Church did spend an enormous amount of money campaigning on proposition 8. The question that arises from this is over their tax free status. I've read quite a lot suggesting that this is involvement in politics and therefore should cost churches involved in this type of campaign their tax exemption. I would not agree with that position. Campaigning on single-issue votes like this s not politics, and I would have thought that Churches, which espouse moral positions, are almost required to make comment on moral issues of this type.

Where they move into politics is where they personalise those positions and make comment on who their followers should vote for. A subtle distinction to be sure but an important one. Thus in my view it is acceptable for a tax exempt body to say - Gay marriage is wrong, you should vote against proposition 8. It would not be acceptable for a tax exempt body to say you should vote for Mr So and So as he agrees with all of our positions. A line has been crossed.

But then again, if a body that feels that a political statement is a moral imperative, then that should be more important to them than their tax exempt status.......

[fpb.livejournal.com]

To repeat what I said, which perhaps you did not notice, ALL religious bodies except for the odd bit of "liberal" pseudery invested heavily in Proposition 8. So, on the other side, did Hollywood, most of the Californian plutocracy, and every politician in the state. To single out the Mormons is repulsive scapegoating, made worse by the fact that the real decider was the support of blacks and Latins, whom "liberals" do not want to mention. This is the updated version of "the Jews/Catholics are behind this" and I will not tolerate it on my f-list, for the same reason why I will not tolerate Jew-bashing.

As for marriage, it is not necessarily a religious concept, but it is certainly a firm and universal one. The point is that its core is not the permission for two people to fuck, but the birth and recognition of children. Which makes "gay marriage" so much nonsense.

[stigandnasty919.livejournal.com]

I may not have been answering the question raised. After all I had not read the comments made by your former F-listers - my fault (could you point me to them?). I was reacting to comments made in the media today arround the issue of tax-exemption for Churches involved in 'politics'. I must admit had I been writing about this off my own bat I may have used the Mormans campaign over Proposition 8 as an example.

If the complaint was anything other than arround tax-exemption then I fail to understand what criticism can be made of any body campigning for something they believe in. Freedom of speach is only freedom of speach when it applies to your opponents as well as those who support your position.

Actually proposition 8 and the various single-issue votes are the most interesting part of the election. There appears to be a distinct difference between support for the 'Liberal' Democratic Party and support for individual liberal social policies.

[ani-bester.livejournal.com]

*head desk*

Funny thing no one realizes is this:
If Obama won the popular vote on California and Prop 8 was passed by popular vote, it means GASP some people who voted for Obama ALSO voted for Prop 8

It drives me crazy how everyone wants to blame the prop 8 passing only on Republicans and Conservatives when CLEARLY people from their own party voted for it, or it would not have passed -_-

[fpb.livejournal.com]

The vote seems to have been decided by black and Latino support. Of course these are the same blocs that coloured California and most of the rest of the map blue, and without which Obama would not have won (bear in mind that the difference in the popular vote was barely 3%, and that several key states went by a handful of votes). These are groups that are notoriously opposed to social liberalism, but that are absolutely indispensable to the Democratic Party. Scapegoats are therefore badly needed. The Mormons are ideal because the next best scapegoat, the Catholics, would call in the Latino vote. The Mormons, on the other hand, are, a) out of state, b) mostly white and WASP, c) already disliked, and d) suspected of being Republican. Lovely job, ay?

[goreism.livejournal.com]

bear in mind that the difference in the popular vote was barely 3%

More like twice that.

[m-francis.livejournal.com]

Yes and no. Remember, that for all practical purposes, if one percentage goes down the other goes up by a like amount.

Thus, if 3% of Obama voters had voted for McCain instead, the percentages would have been 50%-49%. (Judging by the local paper, some people voted for Obama because they thought he would close the borders to illegal immigrants; so it is not an unlikely thought experiment.)

OTOH, if 3% of Obama voters had simply stayed home, the vote totals would have changed only to 52%-47%

Still, it is worth noting that 46% did vote for the Other and 1% voted (in effect) for Neither One. Only in places like New England, California, Philadelphia County, et al. was the vote dramatically lopsided.

The wonderful thing about the electoral college is that while it usually gives a clear victory to one candidate, it cautions against regarding the victory as a "mandate."

[fpb.livejournal.com]

That's OK. Some of us like to be able to look in the mirror without throwing up.

[wade-scott.livejournal.com]

What? Common decency? Looking at the facts instead of the propaganda? For shame.

I figure if the IRS wants to take away our tax exempt status for taking a moral stand on an issue, then so be it. We'll deal. After all, it's not the first time in our history that the government has tried to legislate our morals. However, in a bitter twist of irony, we would be the only ones "punished," when the Church itself wasn't the largest donor and Prop 8 was taken to the pulpit of many other congregations.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

That is exactly the case. You see, if they went after, say, the Catholic Church, that would come much too close to suggesting that the mostly-Catholic Latinos had done something wrong, and that would never do: the Latino vote must stay within the Dem corral. Ditto with Baptist and other Protestant churches and the black vote. And in real life, it was blacks and latinos who decided the vote.

[wade-scott.livejournal.com]

Will you do me a favor and cite your source? I know I'm going to be battling this one socially for a while.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2008/11/proposition-8-e.html
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/voters-supported-black-2218703-latino-proposition
http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_10909847?source=most_emailed
http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2008/10/30/proposition_8/

Watch for a swift resurgence of racism among the homosexual community.

[8bitbard.livejournal.com]

I've already seen one instance of a gay man going racist.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

Mind you, when they speak of black homophobia, they don't just kid around. I am told that violent assaults against gay men in Washington DC are common. Anyway, another instance of the collapse of identity politics.

[wade-scott.livejournal.com]

Thank you. And to return in kind:

The LDS Church's official response: http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/news-releases-stories/church-issues-statement-on-proposition-8-protest

And the sort of "reaching across the aisle" I like to see:
http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/news-releases-stories/catholic-bishop-decries-religious-bigotry-against-mormons

[wade-scott.livejournal.com]

Thank you.

I have been amazed at the lack of sportsmanship over this entire election. I always thought that in a democracy, majority rules and the question is then settled. I understand the need to perhaps question the constitutionality of a measure, but the personal attacks and scapegoating are just childish.

[cheyinka]

That's fascinating that it's being blamed on the Mormons, honestly, because I've seen that in a couple places, but both times it was someone who was raised Mormon saying it, and I thought it was a matter of, I dunno, "the grass is always less green on the side of the fence I came from"?

But, then again, the Mormons are the ones with the commercials in the US about "family is forever"...

Anyway, yes, like ani_bester said, the only way the various anti-same-sex-marriage propositions and initiatives could have passed is if at least some of those who voted for Obama also voted for those ballot measures. And that's actually part of what filled me with such unhappiness to realize - people who voted for Obama also voted the way I would have on such a proposition, but generally did not vote the way I would have on any "life issue" propositions, and the latter (to me) are more important than the former.

[sartorias.livejournal.com]

Wow, I apologize for so misstating myself--though I don't recall using the word blame. I certainly don't consider the Mormons wrong or bad for their views! I was acknowledging my Mormon friends' own claim of success in helping to pass the Proposition. (I will double check this tomorrow at a family party at which will be an LDS relative who dedicated many hours recently at Church sites campaigning for the Proposition. I plan to ask her how she looks at the success of the issue.)

[fpb.livejournal.com]

Please don't treat me like an idiot. I know that this story is spreading through all the pro-gay-marriage idiots and that people are already talking of various kinds of legal punishments against the Mormons. As you ought to know, the proposition was defeated by the black and latino vote, and to single out one of the very many religious bodies who have lined up against it is rank scapegoating. And to ask "a Mormon friend" to confirm it for you is despicable.

[sartorias.livejournal.com]

Augh, I wish I could get you to see that discussing the how and why afterward is not blaming. Or scapegoating, which as I understand it is vilifying or punishing the other person. J was over at the headquarters the other night celebrating their successful efforts--what's wrong with that? She's not punishing us, and we're not punishing her. In any case, I've seen the stats pointing toward the Latino population and how they tended to vote. My daughter reports that many of her Latino friends are angry that they have been misrepresented.

In any case, nobody is going to be hanged at the castle gates over their partisanship. And I don't see why discussion is despicable. She worked at the Prop 8 hq but he was over here a lot during the debates in particular, and he (staunch McCain supporter) and spouse (Obama supporter) talked over the issues. We'll all get together tomorrow to celebrate a 90th birthday. Nobody is a villain, nobody will be outcast, for holding different views.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

Oh, yeah, right.

[sartorias.livejournal.com]

Well, i tried to explain, but am unsuccessful, so I'll wish you well, and depart.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

http://it.mc252.mail.yahoo.com/mc/showMessage?fid=Inbox&sort=date&order=down&startMid=25&.rand=1864754167&da=0&midIndex=22&mid=1_12512720_ALOwktkAAVCmSRPC7wqiDgKHq6I&prevMid=1_12511977_ALKwktkAAUQ%2BSRO%2F2AjonQg6oSw&nextMid=1_12511242_AMmwktkAADAgSROtNgSC9US8%2B8I&m=1_12515741_AMywktkAAFNWSRPiIgTXYnx%2FeeQ,1_12515007_AMuwktkAAMt4SRPfDwqwLRaI7Lw,1_12514275_ALKwktkAAIFeSRPKGQgVnF6loQI,1_12513426_ALKwktkAAB73SRPEVA1z9VJDnE4,1_12511977_ALKwktkAAUQ%2BSRO%2F2AjonQg6oSw,1_12512720_ALOwktkAAVCmSRPC7wqiDgKHq6I,1_12511242_AMmwktkAADAgSROtNgSC9US8%2B8I,1_12510666_AMiwktkAAPYQSROofAhtRTq1J8I,#6

[goreism.livejournal.com]

I must say this No on Prop. 8 ad is pretty revolting.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

There is considerably worse: http://it.mc252.mail.yahoo.com/mc/showMessage?fid=Inbox&sort=date&order=down&startMid=25&.rand=1864754167&da=0&midIndex=22&mid=1_12512720_ALOwktkAAVCmSRPC7wqiDgKHq6I&prevMid=1_12511977_ALKwktkAAUQ%2BSRO%2F2AjonQg6oSw&nextMid=1_12511242_AMmwktkAADAgSROtNgSC9US8%2B8I&m=1_12515741_AMywktkAAFNWSRPiIgTXYnx%2FeeQ,1_12515007_AMuwktkAAMt4SRPfDwqwLRaI7Lw,1_12514275_ALKwktkAAIFeSRPKGQgVnF6loQI,1_12513426_ALKwktkAAB73SRPEVA1z9VJDnE4,1_12511977_ALKwktkAAUQ%2BSRO%2F2AjonQg6oSw,1_12512720_ALOwktkAAVCmSRPC7wqiDgKHq6I,1_12511242_AMmwktkAADAgSROtNgSC9US8%2B8I,1_12510666_AMiwktkAAPYQSROofAhtRTq1J8I,#6

[8bitbard.livejournal.com]

The link isn't working. It just goes to Yahoo Mail Italia's homepage.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

Could you try it again? I just tested it and it worked for me. It should take you to a news entry on the LifeNews service.

[goreism.livejournal.com]

Doesn't work for me either. I think it's because I'd have to be logged in as you.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

All right, I will copy and post it.