More symptoms of insanity on the American right

[fpb]

In yesterday's American Thinker, a man with the Italian name of Bonelli wrote the following, extremely offensive statement:

The United States is different from most other countries in many ways. One unique aspect of our country is that our elected officials, officers of the court, and the military, all pledge their allegiance to the Constitution and not to an office, individual or party. This assures continuity of the ideals set forth by the founders.

As an Italian citizen, I have personally sworn to defend the Constitution of my country when I served in the Italian army. The presumption involved in this ignorant display of insular arrogance is an insult to every constitutional government in the world.

Comments

Re: The cultural exception argument

[fpb.livejournal.com]

It does NOT seem odd to me, since I myself had to help with another such case. It does, however, seem disgusting.

Re: The cultural exception argument

[marielapin.livejournal.com]

My mother does not currently have insurance, and my great-aunt was afraid to go to the doctor for over a year due to monetary reasons. However, when they need help they have always found it, either from family or church or charity. The local Knights of Columbus routinely raise money for those who cannot afford certain medical treatments.

It is wrong that those who need help cannot get it because of the monetary factor. Even if it is not obvious, I am in favor of healthcare that is available to all. I am just not in favor of the current proposals that are trying to be ramroded through congress. I have two American friends living in Europe, one in Liverpool, the other in Belgium. They both like and have been greatly helped by their nationalized care in emergency and other major medical conditions. This is such an important issue, and I think it is being handled poorly by the those in charge, who are belittling anyone who has any negative or questioning things to say about it. How is this supposed to glean support or trust?

Re: The cultural exception argument

[fpb.livejournal.com]

From the moment this polemic started, the sole argument that the opponents of health reform have used, in a thousand variations, has been the evil, awfulness and subhumanity of European health systems. Do you remember when the Investors' Business Daily, a conservative thought leader, actually were stupid enough to say that the British Health Service would have condemned Professor Stephen Hawking (a citizen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland) to death? And they did not even really apologize when certain facts were pointed out to them - not least, by the Professor himself. The diet of lies and misrepresentations about national health services has been as unrelenting as it has been repulsive; which is why even someone like sanscouronne, who has lived in France, is under the impression that Europe groans under the burden of the unburied victims of third-world hospitals. I am sick and tired of it. And if this movement of lies, misrepresentation, and xenophobia, is so wholly unrepresentative, how come that the Democrats, with the Presidency and both houses in their hands, are losing ground in the struggle for reform?

Re: The cultural exception argument

[sanscouronne.livejournal.com]

Um, I am most definitely NOT under that impression, and have said nothing to that effect.

???

Re: The cultural exception argument

[fpb.livejournal.com]

That was an exaggeration. But you said that for every story about an American having to beg for his life you hear about one European dying because kidney operations were not available - that is, the kind of stories that American conservative media keep hammering on in order to try to convince their readers that the European systems are objectively worse than yours. Which is a crock. In every field from infant mortality to expenditure per head, Europe leads the US by a considerable margin. We are healthier and live longer. End of story.

Re: The cultural exception argument

[sanscouronne.livejournal.com]

I beg you not to use me as a proxy for an extreme viewpoint that, as I have already argued, is not representative of even those who oppose Obama's healthcare plan (and I point marielapin's response below about some of the arguments against the proposed legislation).

One thing I do not understand

[fpb.livejournal.com]

sanscouronne wrote this in reply to something I said, which seems to have been deleted (though I still have it in my e-mail account) and left this statement wandering off alone. As I am the only person who could have deleted my statements, and as I certainly did not delete it, I have absolutely no idea how this happened. Gremlins?

Re: The cultural exception argument

[marielapin.livejournal.com]

The story about Stephen Hawking was ridiculous and offensive and deserved an apology.

However, I am wondering what on earth you are reading that you only find such arguments against this legislation. Most of what I read has no problem with the idea itself, only the way in which it is done. The right-wing hard line conservatives are not the only conservatives in this country. A lot of the arguing in town-hall meetings has been over coverage of abortion, not over the expansion of health care itself.

The US Bishops and The Catholic Medical Association have rejected the current health care bills. Why? Not because we as Catholic do not believe that health care should be available to all, but because of what is in the bills themselves. The last link I am posting is an op-ed article on alternatives to Obamacare. You will not see one reference to Europe at all.

http://www.ncregister.com/daily/u.s._bishops_reject_all_current_health_care_bills

http://www.ncregister.com/daily/problems_remain_with_health-care_reform_bills

http://www.cathmed.org/assets/files/Open%20Letter%20to%20Catholics%20and%20Catholic%20Organizations%20FINAL%203.pdf

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204251404574342170072865070.html

Re: The cultural exception argument

[fpb.livejournal.com]

Yes. And the US bishops are in the crosshairs of the conservatives within the Catholic Church because they have said that they would favour a national health service apart from the matter of abortion. My impression is that a lot of conservatives are using abortion as an excuse (some of them favour it) to get support from Catholics and other Christians, but their main argument is always that "socialized medicine" is some sort of tyranny. This is the same kind of people who insist that Fascism and Nazism were branches of Socialism.

Re: The cultural exception argument

[marielapin.livejournal.com]

The conservatives within the Catholic Church in America oppose the bishops? Excuse me but I fit in that category! The christians who oppose nationalized health care are mainly Protestants of the fundamental flavor.

Re: The cultural exception argument

[sanscouronne.livejournal.com]

And to further dispel you of this false impression, I will tell you all that while living in France, I enjoyed very good healthcare (albeit limited, as I was healthy the whole time, and only had a routine physical to get my visa), as did my American companions.

*That being said, I can say the same with respect to my experience with healthcare in the United States. Which is why I would not use my personal experience in either country, nor anecdotes from anyone else, to draw general conclusions.

Re: The cultural exception argument

[mentalguy.livejournal.com]

I think, by the way, that we ought to distinguish between the specific Democratic legislation and health reform qua health reform.

Re: The cultural exception argument

[fpb.livejournal.com]

I think that however it happened, it would be opposed. As President Obama pointed out, he is hardly the first to try and introduce some national health scheme; every one, including that of the Republican Nixon, has been defeated. I think that if Congress ever prepared a perfect bipartisan scheme with the keys to Heaven as a side offer, the majority of Americans would elect to go to Hell to show their independence of the State.

Re: The cultural exception argument

[mentalguy.livejournal.com]

Maybe. However, I think it would be relatively safe to say that neither I, nor marielapin nor sanscouronne would be among that majority if so.

(Though I admit I'm partial to your earlier idea that perhaps reform should be enacted on the state rather than the federal level, owing to the sheer size of the US.)

Re: The cultural exception argument

[mentalguy.livejournal.com]

Even if it is not obvious, I am in favor of healthcare that is available to all. I am just not in favor of the current proposals that are trying to be ramroded through congress....This is such an important issue, and I think it is being handled poorly by the those in charge, who are belittling anyone who has any negative or questioning things to say about it. How is this supposed to glean support or trust?

This is pretty much my own position as well. Though I unfortunately do know people who fit the pattern fpb describes.

Re: The cultural exception argument

[mentalguy.livejournal.com]

(Well, more than that. 10-15 years ago, I used to be one.)