More symptoms of insanity on the American right

[fpb]

In yesterday's American Thinker, a man with the Italian name of Bonelli wrote the following, extremely offensive statement:

The United States is different from most other countries in many ways. One unique aspect of our country is that our elected officials, officers of the court, and the military, all pledge their allegiance to the Constitution and not to an office, individual or party. This assures continuity of the ideals set forth by the founders.

As an Italian citizen, I have personally sworn to defend the Constitution of my country when I served in the Italian army. The presumption involved in this ignorant display of insular arrogance is an insult to every constitutional government in the world.

Comments

[sanscouronne.livejournal.com]

I think that if you looked hard enough, you would find every sort of absurdity in a publication. Unfortunately (or not), there is no intelligence test to screen against such stupid statements. In my opinion, you exaggerate the presence and influence of the American right. I found this to be the attitude of many Europeans I met while living abroad, who tended to fixate on the a) far right and b) high crime rate in the United States. Both are not inconsiderable, particularly from a European perspective, but I found that often such persons had limited exposure to life in the U.S. and thus a lack of understanding of how vast and diverse the U.S. actually is (not to accuse you of this, sir, but just saying).

Spending two weeks in New York City, one city in a huge country of 50 states, where there can be vast cultural differences between city and suburb, much less between regions, will hardly give you an accurate snapshot of America. I daresay that reading some nonsense published by a partisan publication would do that either.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

The fact is that this does not strike me as isolated. The behaviour of the American right especially in the matter of national health provision has amounted to a declaration of independence from planet Earth. Try explaining to them that every advanced country except the US has national health cover, and they will reply with a straight face that that is because America is exceptional. And this kind of thinking does not pertain to a tiny minority: it is the animating spirit of the wave of opposition to plans for a health service.

The cultural exception argument

[sanscouronne.livejournal.com]

This is not unique to the American right. I've heard the phrase "exception francaise" used left and right in the attempt to stop a debate. Sure, it's a logical fallacy, but hardly a rare one in its usage in a contemporary era of nations.

For my part, I think the health care issue is an important one, but I would not go so far to say that those who reject national health care are crazy (or as you put it, extraterrestrial). Yes, there are some major problems in our healthcare industry, but our standard of living is hardly approaching third world status.

Re: The cultural exception argument

[fpb.livejournal.com]

In that case, why are so many Americans reduced to beg at the ends of their lives? http://fpb.livejournal.com/345158.html That is a third world feature.

Re: The cultural exception argument

[marielapin.livejournal.com]

To be quite honest I have never heard of anyone who has had to beg before the way this man did. There are so many charities and foundations willing to help with medical expenses that this story seems, well very odd to me.

Re: The cultural exception argument

[mentalguy.livejournal.com]

There are so many charities and foundations willing to help with medical expenses...

Are there?

It's not an idle question -- I have a friend, a freelance illustrator, who is in chronic and increasingly debilitating pain, and hasn't even been able to afford medical tests to find out what's wrong with her. Because of the pre-existing condition, insurance would be a non-starter at this point even if she could afford it...

I've been looking for that kind of thing on her behalf, but maybe I just don't know what to look for. Can you give me some direction please?

Re: The cultural exception argument

[marielapin.livejournal.com]

Well depending on her condition you can start with the foundations that research that particular condition. My great-aunt could not afford her medication and 90% was paid for by a medical charity association. I would have to call my grandmother to find out which one.

Then of course you have individual church charities, Catholic Charities, etc. I found some good articles of ways you can look for this kind of assistance. Sometimes it is as easy as asking the doctor, as it was in the case of my great-aunt.

http://www.austindiocese.org/newsletter_article_view.php?id=2712
http://www.ehow.com/how_2045505_money-medical-bills.html

Re: The cultural exception argument

[fpb.livejournal.com]

It does NOT seem odd to me, since I myself had to help with another such case. It does, however, seem disgusting.

Re: The cultural exception argument

[marielapin.livejournal.com]

My mother does not currently have insurance, and my great-aunt was afraid to go to the doctor for over a year due to monetary reasons. However, when they need help they have always found it, either from family or church or charity. The local Knights of Columbus routinely raise money for those who cannot afford certain medical treatments.

It is wrong that those who need help cannot get it because of the monetary factor. Even if it is not obvious, I am in favor of healthcare that is available to all. I am just not in favor of the current proposals that are trying to be ramroded through congress. I have two American friends living in Europe, one in Liverpool, the other in Belgium. They both like and have been greatly helped by their nationalized care in emergency and other major medical conditions. This is such an important issue, and I think it is being handled poorly by the those in charge, who are belittling anyone who has any negative or questioning things to say about it. How is this supposed to glean support or trust?

Re: The cultural exception argument

[sanscouronne.livejournal.com]

While I do not deny the veracity of this story, or the backdrop from which it has emerged, I must point out that for every anecdote about someone struggling to pay for medical care, there is one about a Canadian/European dying waiting for a kidney transplant or something akin to that. Both of these cases reveal actual problems in these countries' respective healthcare industries, but I would not say that any of them are illustrative of the majority experience.

Again, this is not to say that there needs to be major change in U.S. healthcare, but the situation is a bit more nuanced, and the perspectives along the political spectrum tend to be more concentrated in the middle, and not like the one of the man quoted above. Also, in your linked post you aptly described the general difference between Americans and Europeans (other Western states) concerning the tenuous relationship between citizen and state. I have lived in heavily Republican and Democrat states, and can probably count on one hand the number of loonies on both sides.

In short, I assure you, the U.S. is hardly approaching a state of radical conservative dystopia, in which the masses are dying in the street due to a bunch of men who spit on maps of Europe. Major problems? Yes. Is the obvious solution national healthcare a la France, or the U.K., etc? No, and it isn't strictly due to some inherent dislike of Europe, and it isn't madness to think otherwise. As your linked post pointed out, there are some major cultural differences here.

I apologize that this was rather verbose.

Re: The cultural exception argument

[marielapin.livejournal.com]

Very well said.

Re: The cultural exception argument

[fpb.livejournal.com]

As I said elsewhere, we live longer, are healthier, and, last but not least, pay less for it. (Health spending as a percentage of GDP is about 8-8.5% in western Europe, and 13% in the USA.) This is not a matter of anecdotes; the superiority of our variety of systems is measurable.

[marielapin.livejournal.com]

The truth is that a lot of Americans have a general distrust of goverment, including myself. If you think about the history of America and fact that most folks came here early on to escape some type of rule that they did not like, it does make sense. A lot of the Protestant "I can do it better myself" mindset is really a part of the makeup of our culture. As far as those in need are concerned, I feel a real and pressing obligation to help them, physically and monetarily.

Another thing that makes the US wary of "every advanced country except the US" phrase is that yes they may have national health care but they have also lost their faith. And a country that does not have the inherent dignity of every human being as listed as its highest goal is not one that I am going to try with my and my family's health.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

I am speaking of my country. And you might want to have a look at Italian politics, including the fury of the secularist minority at the unbreakable power of the Catholic majority on both sides.

In fact, I very much doubt whether the supposed secularism of Europe and religiosity of the USA will stand up to scrutiny. The political results are pretty much the same: uncontrolled divorce, legalized abortion, aggressive homosexualism, falling birth rate, the increasing threat of euthanasia (if we have the Netherlands, you have Oregon), and an ongoing assault upon the Christian identity of both areas. You could not slip a cigarette paper between the position of Europe and both North American countries in this regard. I would add that a great deal of American regularity at church is to do more with the American instinct to huddle together and form groups, than with any profound convinction; as can be seen any time that those same church members go to vote. And a good half both of the Protestant churches and of the Catholic establishment is worldly and liberal. So where is the difference?

[marielapin.livejournal.com]

The difference is you are about 30 years ahead of us going down this line of destruction. You compare Oregon to the Netherlands? So far only about 35+ cases occur a year in Oregon, versus 1500-2000 a year in the Netherlands. We still have replacement birth rate of 2.1. How can you compare that to the 1.3 of Italy? In divorce rates we in the US are still solidly in the running, but in abortions we are still much lower than Europe. Are we on the slipperly slope? Heck yes! that is why we are so defensive and untrusting and obstinate. We don't want to see our country thiry plus years down the line with numbers of those of Europe.

Abortion numbers
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/25s3099.html

Birth Rates
http://www.prb.org/pdf07/TFRTable.pdf

Divorce Rates
http://www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsWorld.shtml

Euthanasia Rates
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/395517_deathdignity10.html
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2006/may/06050202.html

[fpb.livejournal.com]

We are enthusiastic learners. Abortion, divorce, euthanasia - all of them came to Europe from North America. In the Nuremberg trials, the Nazi Home Secretary Frick pointed out that Nazi eugenistic politics followed American precendent, and even embarrased one of the American prosecutors, Robert Kempen, a German refugee, by revealing that he, Frick, had written to him, Kempen, giving an account of those policies, when Kempen was already in the American government's employ. And if Italy's low birth rates correspond with a powerful and unbreakable Catholic presence, then I suggest to you that "losing our faith" has little to do with it. Your birth rates are at any rate boosted by first-generation immigrants; if those were counted out, you would barely come out ahead.

[(Anonymous)]

"Most" is not all. While I don't know whether or not he's right, one counter-example is not enough to disprove his claim about "most other countries."

[fpb.livejournal.com]

And this kind of defensive generalization does not show that you know anything beyond the city limits of your place of residence, either. To be in the service of the laws and institutions rather than of shifting coalitions of politicians is a feature of every civilized state.

[darkthirty.livejournal.com]

Where is America anyway? I keep hearing about this place, but all I ever seem to find is evidence of it, not the thing itself. Weird.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

[8bitbard.livejournal.com]

Worse still: http://www.conservapedia.com/Conservative_Bible_Project

This takes the cake IMO.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

As though we did not have the Jerusalem Bible warranted by the Catholic Church, the New International Version for creationists and hardcore evangelicals, and so on and so forth and so following. People who would seriously undertake such an effort can only be described as living in a state of separatist paranoia.

[becomethesea.livejournal.com]

The United States has a Constitution??? WHAT?? I never knew we even had one! There's a Bill of Rights? What's that???

/sarcasm

GAHHH. *facepalm*

[marielapin.livejournal.com]

I currently live in the South in a very Republican area where about 75% are Republicans, or at least vote Republican. Granted, that does not mean hard core right conservatives. I have also lived in Alabama for ten years, so I have a pretty good idea about the types of folks fpb is talking about. I also think these guys are not mainstream, by any means. I personally have not met one of these people that he keeps mentioning, saying that the US is so far superior to Europe, etc. And while most of my friends I would say lean more conservative (not in the way of the folks he keeps pointing out) I do have friends though that are extremely far left, that advocate scary ideas like birth regulation.

[inverarity.livejournal.com]

I've met plenty of far right (and not so very far right) conservatives, and know a few personally, who do indeed believe that Europe is (to use a few of the favorite words they like to throw around), "effete," "ineffectual," "socialist" (they apply this label to all of Europe, not just those countries that actually are socialist), "godless" (which they equate with "amoral and corrupt"), etc.

Remember "cheese-eating surrender monkeys"? Yeah, it was a joke, but it's also what an awful lot of them deeply believe. That is mainstream conservative political discourse right now.

OTOH, I've heard birth regulation advocated by conservatives as often as by liberals, and almost always it's in the context of someone spouting off about "parenting licenses" after seeing some particularly egregious example of bad parenting on the news. Very few of them really mean it. (And of those who do, it's usually the conservatives who don't back down when you ask, "Are you serious?")