More symptoms of insanity on the American right

[fpb]

In yesterday's American Thinker, a man with the Italian name of Bonelli wrote the following, extremely offensive statement:

The United States is different from most other countries in many ways. One unique aspect of our country is that our elected officials, officers of the court, and the military, all pledge their allegiance to the Constitution and not to an office, individual or party. This assures continuity of the ideals set forth by the founders.

As an Italian citizen, I have personally sworn to defend the Constitution of my country when I served in the Italian army. The presumption involved in this ignorant display of insular arrogance is an insult to every constitutional government in the world.

Comments

[fpb.livejournal.com]

The fact is that this does not strike me as isolated. The behaviour of the American right especially in the matter of national health provision has amounted to a declaration of independence from planet Earth. Try explaining to them that every advanced country except the US has national health cover, and they will reply with a straight face that that is because America is exceptional. And this kind of thinking does not pertain to a tiny minority: it is the animating spirit of the wave of opposition to plans for a health service.

The cultural exception argument

[sanscouronne.livejournal.com]

This is not unique to the American right. I've heard the phrase "exception francaise" used left and right in the attempt to stop a debate. Sure, it's a logical fallacy, but hardly a rare one in its usage in a contemporary era of nations.

For my part, I think the health care issue is an important one, but I would not go so far to say that those who reject national health care are crazy (or as you put it, extraterrestrial). Yes, there are some major problems in our healthcare industry, but our standard of living is hardly approaching third world status.

Re: The cultural exception argument

[fpb.livejournal.com]

In that case, why are so many Americans reduced to beg at the ends of their lives? http://fpb.livejournal.com/345158.html That is a third world feature.

Re: The cultural exception argument

[marielapin.livejournal.com]

To be quite honest I have never heard of anyone who has had to beg before the way this man did. There are so many charities and foundations willing to help with medical expenses that this story seems, well very odd to me.

Re: The cultural exception argument

[mentalguy.livejournal.com]

There are so many charities and foundations willing to help with medical expenses...

Are there?

It's not an idle question -- I have a friend, a freelance illustrator, who is in chronic and increasingly debilitating pain, and hasn't even been able to afford medical tests to find out what's wrong with her. Because of the pre-existing condition, insurance would be a non-starter at this point even if she could afford it...

I've been looking for that kind of thing on her behalf, but maybe I just don't know what to look for. Can you give me some direction please?

Re: The cultural exception argument

[marielapin.livejournal.com]

Well depending on her condition you can start with the foundations that research that particular condition. My great-aunt could not afford her medication and 90% was paid for by a medical charity association. I would have to call my grandmother to find out which one.

Then of course you have individual church charities, Catholic Charities, etc. I found some good articles of ways you can look for this kind of assistance. Sometimes it is as easy as asking the doctor, as it was in the case of my great-aunt.

http://www.austindiocese.org/newsletter_article_view.php?id=2712
http://www.ehow.com/how_2045505_money-medical-bills.html

Re: The cultural exception argument

[mentalguy.livejournal.com]

Well depending on her condition you can start with the foundations that research that particular condition.

Part of the difficulty is that we don't know what her condition is yet -- hence the need for tests!

Unfortunately, those articles are not actually very helpful. Many of the suggestions in the ehow article aren't really applicable in this case. (And I have no words for a few of them... Having children sell craft items? Seriously?) Unfortunately, Catholic Charities in her region also doesn't offer services as comprehensive as in Texas.

I don't mean to sound ungrateful; you have given me some additional ideas as far as seeking referrals, so thank you for that. And I found the CC Texas article encouraging; I may pursue CC in her area further. Just... please understand that this is not very easy in practice. Even ehow rates the difficulty as "challenging."

Re: The cultural exception argument

[marielapin.livejournal.com]

My great-aunt did not have the money for the testing she needed. While undergoing treatment the doctor found the money for her, after she agreed to actually go in and have tests run. Is your friend not part of any faith community that she could go to?

Re: The cultural exception argument

[fpb.livejournal.com]

It does NOT seem odd to me, since I myself had to help with another such case. It does, however, seem disgusting.

Re: The cultural exception argument

[marielapin.livejournal.com]

My mother does not currently have insurance, and my great-aunt was afraid to go to the doctor for over a year due to monetary reasons. However, when they need help they have always found it, either from family or church or charity. The local Knights of Columbus routinely raise money for those who cannot afford certain medical treatments.

It is wrong that those who need help cannot get it because of the monetary factor. Even if it is not obvious, I am in favor of healthcare that is available to all. I am just not in favor of the current proposals that are trying to be ramroded through congress. I have two American friends living in Europe, one in Liverpool, the other in Belgium. They both like and have been greatly helped by their nationalized care in emergency and other major medical conditions. This is such an important issue, and I think it is being handled poorly by the those in charge, who are belittling anyone who has any negative or questioning things to say about it. How is this supposed to glean support or trust?

Re: The cultural exception argument

[fpb.livejournal.com]

From the moment this polemic started, the sole argument that the opponents of health reform have used, in a thousand variations, has been the evil, awfulness and subhumanity of European health systems. Do you remember when the Investors' Business Daily, a conservative thought leader, actually were stupid enough to say that the British Health Service would have condemned Professor Stephen Hawking (a citizen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland) to death? And they did not even really apologize when certain facts were pointed out to them - not least, by the Professor himself. The diet of lies and misrepresentations about national health services has been as unrelenting as it has been repulsive; which is why even someone like sanscouronne, who has lived in France, is under the impression that Europe groans under the burden of the unburied victims of third-world hospitals. I am sick and tired of it. And if this movement of lies, misrepresentation, and xenophobia, is so wholly unrepresentative, how come that the Democrats, with the Presidency and both houses in their hands, are losing ground in the struggle for reform?

Re: The cultural exception argument

[sanscouronne.livejournal.com]

Um, I am most definitely NOT under that impression, and have said nothing to that effect.

???

Re: The cultural exception argument

[mentalguy.livejournal.com]

Even if it is not obvious, I am in favor of healthcare that is available to all. I am just not in favor of the current proposals that are trying to be ramroded through congress....This is such an important issue, and I think it is being handled poorly by the those in charge, who are belittling anyone who has any negative or questioning things to say about it. How is this supposed to glean support or trust?

This is pretty much my own position as well. Though I unfortunately do know people who fit the pattern fpb describes.

Re: The cultural exception argument

[sanscouronne.livejournal.com]

While I do not deny the veracity of this story, or the backdrop from which it has emerged, I must point out that for every anecdote about someone struggling to pay for medical care, there is one about a Canadian/European dying waiting for a kidney transplant or something akin to that. Both of these cases reveal actual problems in these countries' respective healthcare industries, but I would not say that any of them are illustrative of the majority experience.

Again, this is not to say that there needs to be major change in U.S. healthcare, but the situation is a bit more nuanced, and the perspectives along the political spectrum tend to be more concentrated in the middle, and not like the one of the man quoted above. Also, in your linked post you aptly described the general difference between Americans and Europeans (other Western states) concerning the tenuous relationship between citizen and state. I have lived in heavily Republican and Democrat states, and can probably count on one hand the number of loonies on both sides.

In short, I assure you, the U.S. is hardly approaching a state of radical conservative dystopia, in which the masses are dying in the street due to a bunch of men who spit on maps of Europe. Major problems? Yes. Is the obvious solution national healthcare a la France, or the U.K., etc? No, and it isn't strictly due to some inherent dislike of Europe, and it isn't madness to think otherwise. As your linked post pointed out, there are some major cultural differences here.

I apologize that this was rather verbose.

Re: The cultural exception argument

[marielapin.livejournal.com]

Very well said.

Re: The cultural exception argument

[fpb.livejournal.com]

As I said elsewhere, we live longer, are healthier, and, last but not least, pay less for it. (Health spending as a percentage of GDP is about 8-8.5% in western Europe, and 13% in the USA.) This is not a matter of anecdotes; the superiority of our variety of systems is measurable.

Re: The cultural exception argument

[sanscouronne.livejournal.com]

I do not disagree with these statistics. I am merely pointing out that it is not absurd to oppose a copy-and-paste reproduction of a European healthcare system in the United States. The United States and the countries of Europe are very different from one another. We have different demographic structures, and a far larger population than any individual European country. For example, Americans have a larger proportion of people suffering from obesity, which undoubtedly drives down our average life expectancy. Can this be uniquely attributed to our inferior ability to ensure healthcare? I would argue no. *

Re: The cultural exception argument

[fpb.livejournal.com]

As a matter of fact, we are experiencing a grave problem over here, though I am not sure how it compares. In Britain especially, obesity has become a curse. The NHS has been badgering the government, private business, and the public, about it, and I have a feeling that the problem is being at least faced, if not necessarily dealt with, largely thanks to its repeated alarm. (I am not wholly happy about it either; it has an element of "be afraid, be very afraid" that displeases me. But the problem is real; one just has to walk the streets to realize it; and I think the NHS is doing its duty trying to awaken the public to it.)

[marielapin.livejournal.com]

The truth is that a lot of Americans have a general distrust of goverment, including myself. If you think about the history of America and fact that most folks came here early on to escape some type of rule that they did not like, it does make sense. A lot of the Protestant "I can do it better myself" mindset is really a part of the makeup of our culture. As far as those in need are concerned, I feel a real and pressing obligation to help them, physically and monetarily.

Another thing that makes the US wary of "every advanced country except the US" phrase is that yes they may have national health care but they have also lost their faith. And a country that does not have the inherent dignity of every human being as listed as its highest goal is not one that I am going to try with my and my family's health.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

I am speaking of my country. And you might want to have a look at Italian politics, including the fury of the secularist minority at the unbreakable power of the Catholic majority on both sides.

In fact, I very much doubt whether the supposed secularism of Europe and religiosity of the USA will stand up to scrutiny. The political results are pretty much the same: uncontrolled divorce, legalized abortion, aggressive homosexualism, falling birth rate, the increasing threat of euthanasia (if we have the Netherlands, you have Oregon), and an ongoing assault upon the Christian identity of both areas. You could not slip a cigarette paper between the position of Europe and both North American countries in this regard. I would add that a great deal of American regularity at church is to do more with the American instinct to huddle together and form groups, than with any profound convinction; as can be seen any time that those same church members go to vote. And a good half both of the Protestant churches and of the Catholic establishment is worldly and liberal. So where is the difference?

[marielapin.livejournal.com]

The difference is you are about 30 years ahead of us going down this line of destruction. You compare Oregon to the Netherlands? So far only about 35+ cases occur a year in Oregon, versus 1500-2000 a year in the Netherlands. We still have replacement birth rate of 2.1. How can you compare that to the 1.3 of Italy? In divorce rates we in the US are still solidly in the running, but in abortions we are still much lower than Europe. Are we on the slipperly slope? Heck yes! that is why we are so defensive and untrusting and obstinate. We don't want to see our country thiry plus years down the line with numbers of those of Europe.

Abortion numbers
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/25s3099.html

Birth Rates
http://www.prb.org/pdf07/TFRTable.pdf

Divorce Rates
http://www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsWorld.shtml

Euthanasia Rates
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/395517_deathdignity10.html
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2006/may/06050202.html

[fpb.livejournal.com]

We are enthusiastic learners. Abortion, divorce, euthanasia - all of them came to Europe from North America. In the Nuremberg trials, the Nazi Home Secretary Frick pointed out that Nazi eugenistic politics followed American precendent, and even embarrased one of the American prosecutors, Robert Kempen, a German refugee, by revealing that he, Frick, had written to him, Kempen, giving an account of those policies, when Kempen was already in the American government's employ. And if Italy's low birth rates correspond with a powerful and unbreakable Catholic presence, then I suggest to you that "losing our faith" has little to do with it. Your birth rates are at any rate boosted by first-generation immigrants; if those were counted out, you would barely come out ahead.

[marielapin.livejournal.com]

How many of your powerful and unbreakable Catholics in Italy are actually practicing their faith? It sounds just like a cultural label rather than a description of living. The bishops and the Pope have come out again and again talking about the lack of faith in Europe see "If Europe Hates Itself" by Joseph Ratzinger (America as well is on this path). We in America are by no means a Catholic nation but a protestant one.

Are the birth rates of Europe not boosted more by first and second generation Muslim immigrants?

As for the first few sentences of your post, I must say I have nothing to say. We were the first to start euthanasia? We were the first to legalize abortion?

White fertility in red states
http://us.geocities.com/sailerfraud/statistics.html


http://www.comunioneliberazione.org/articoli/eng/RatzAvv140504.htm

http://darwincatholic.blogspot.com/2005/08/making-babies-for-france.html

http://darwincatholic.blogspot.com/2005/08/catholic-population-trends.html

http://darwincatholic.blogspot.com/2005/09/marriage-demographics-fertility.html

[fpb.livejournal.com]

You insist that if a Catholic practiced his or her faith, s/he would have ten children. I suggest that this is a fairly feeble argument. And how much do you know about Italian politics, to ridicule my account of the things that take place in the country where I was born and of the arguments I read in the language I know from birth? I am old enough to remember when these "progressive" things were brought in, under a kind of shiny light of newness; the main argument for them - beginning with divorce - being that "advanced countries" (meaning guess who?) had it. You are coming dangerously close to suggesting that I misunderstand or misrepresent my own experience.

It is true that Germany, alone in Europe, raced the USA down this crazy slope. The Germans and the Americans theorized free love when citizens of other European countries would not even mention it by name, theorized and applied eugenics, legalized divorce and remarriage. The Pope is German; he has seen the consequences of national apostasy all his life, and of course it colours his view of European civilization.

[marielapin.livejournal.com]

In coming back and reading this post, I can see I may have made the point I was wanting to make, albeit with a sledgehammer. This was not written in a Christian manner and for that I am sorry, it represents my own thoughts poorly and also made you angry.

I do acknowledge that there were folks here in the US that were advocating eucenics and birth control and all that crazy stuff at the same time as/or before Hitler. I am no stranger to Margaret Sanger and her Eugenicist cronies . But things here took longer to be enacted than in Europe. Do you have an idea why that is, being a European yourself? Sanger was thought to be wildly off her rocker at the time and was a far cry from the likes of Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Susan B. Anthony. Do you not think that Europeans have lost their faith?

I remember you once saying that in some election, your parents had voted against the bishops and for some divorce law. I hope I have not gotten that incorrect. Why do you not think the bishops were successful in influencing the vote if the majority of folks are staunch Catholics? Is there something else at play here? Just honest questions.