More symptoms of insanity on the American right

[fpb]

In yesterday's American Thinker, a man with the Italian name of Bonelli wrote the following, extremely offensive statement:

The United States is different from most other countries in many ways. One unique aspect of our country is that our elected officials, officers of the court, and the military, all pledge their allegiance to the Constitution and not to an office, individual or party. This assures continuity of the ideals set forth by the founders.

As an Italian citizen, I have personally sworn to defend the Constitution of my country when I served in the Italian army. The presumption involved in this ignorant display of insular arrogance is an insult to every constitutional government in the world.

Comments

[fpb.livejournal.com]

You insist that if a Catholic practiced his or her faith, s/he would have ten children. I suggest that this is a fairly feeble argument. And how much do you know about Italian politics, to ridicule my account of the things that take place in the country where I was born and of the arguments I read in the language I know from birth? I am old enough to remember when these "progressive" things were brought in, under a kind of shiny light of newness; the main argument for them - beginning with divorce - being that "advanced countries" (meaning guess who?) had it. You are coming dangerously close to suggesting that I misunderstand or misrepresent my own experience.

It is true that Germany, alone in Europe, raced the USA down this crazy slope. The Germans and the Americans theorized free love when citizens of other European countries would not even mention it by name, theorized and applied eugenics, legalized divorce and remarriage. The Pope is German; he has seen the consequences of national apostasy all his life, and of course it colours his view of European civilization.

[marielapin.livejournal.com]

Sir, I hope you know I have a great deal of respect for you, and that is the truth. My knowledge of Italian poltics is nil, apart from what you have written. I am not in the least bit arguing that I know anything of them, and I have read your posts on Italian politics with the utmost interest and trust. What I am trying to argue is that what you are saying of American politics is not hitting the target according to mine own experience in daily life in the conservative south.

I do not insist that if a Catholic practiced his faith he would have ten children. Please give me more credit than that. I am one and have only two children. I know, accept and try to live with the utmost of my being the teachings of the Church. I am discerning whether or not to become an NFP teacher and counselor. However what I am trying to argue is that faithful Catholics are bound to reject artificial birth control and are to be open to life, within their responsible means. Does a 1.3 birth rate reflect this if the majority of the country is Catholic?

[fpb.livejournal.com]

It does if the majority of the persons of child-bearing age do not feel able to marry and get a home. Successive economic crises, rigid career structures, and a slow labour market (in spite of everything that our Constitution can say about right to work) mean that three generations of young Italians have adopted a very defensive attitude. In this kind of situation, a strong family structure actually works against birth: young people who rely on the support of their families will not get married or pregnant against their will. Conversely, Britain, with the feeblest family structure in Europe, has the highest birth rate AND the highest abortion rate, including the highest teen pregnancy and teen abortion rates. British kids do not feel obliged to follow their elders' views; in fact, I know of families when they are more or less kicked out at sixteen.

[marielapin.livejournal.com]

I have read about how young Italians are foregoing or delaying marriage in order to live with their families. Would they be in abject poverty if they got married? Italy must now be a country full of very frustrated celibates.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

They would be, and yes it is. The problem of poorly employed, part-employed, or unemployed educated youth is a major one in the country - we call it "precarious labour". And if you ever are able to compare the two countries, you will find that Italy, unlike England, is not geared towards having a large population of floating singles. Rent laws, for instance, favour long-term occupancy, whereas in England they favour short-term contracts. There are not enough small flats for singles in Italian cities, and Italy does not have any unemployment benefit. What it does have is a system where people who had had a permanent job but were partially or totally laid off have their earnings integrated by government; a system that favours older workers and the heads of families.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

Apples and oranges, much? The reason why people don't get work has nothing to do with the health service.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

The shortage of entry-level jobs in Italy has nothing to do with the state, let alone the national health service. If anything, young Italians have the advantage over young Americans in that prospective employers don't have to tax themselves to offer health plans. The Italian jobs market is tight for a number of reasons, but you have managed to home in on the one that has absolutely nothing to do with it.

[marielapin.livejournal.com]

From what you are saying, Italians may have free health care and security for older citizens, but its youth are tied and not free to marry and start their own families until it is almost too late to have a family at all. The culture is dying. If this is true, then can you not see that a lot of people in America have a fear that to give the state such control of our lives means we will actually lose control in other areas?

[fpb.livejournal.com]

Third time - what is going on?

[marielapin.livejournal.com]

I also want to ask where I have ridiculed anything that you have said of your own experience. If I have I ask pardon. I consider you my friend, and while I realize that converstaion over the internet is flawed and cannot replace actual physcial verbal communication, things can come across wrong.

The only sources I have used in questioning the faithfulness of the Catholics in Europe is the pope and the writings of the bishops, as well as the testimony of my friends living there as to the abuses to the liturgy they have seen. I do believe that there are faithful Catholics living in Italy and in Europe as well, but fear they are a minority, as they are here in America.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

You know, this whole business of abuses of liturgy is something else that I find hard to believe. I know that a number of individual parishes have done absurd things that have ended up on Youtube. I, however, have been a regular communicant at a couple of dozen parishes in Italy and a similar number in Britain, and I never witnessed any of the gross abuses people rant about. I have, however, experienced at least one priest who was so reactionary as to be subversive - and he was American! The only time I ever walked out of a Mass in protest was when he preached an omily against the French Revolution (unleashed, according to him, by secret societies such as the Illuminati) and stating that absolute monarchy was the only political system that pleased God. I have a suspicion that a comparatively limited number of lunatics are being exploited and drummed up by an aggressive minority in order to blacken the whole Novus Ordo - a purpose which is very evident in conservative blogs such as Damian Thompson's. And I can add that when this kind of traditionalist gets his head and rearranges a parish according to his own view of tradition, the results, according to my mother - who is old enough to remember the Latin Mass well, and who is a bit nostalgic for it - are like no Mass she ever saw.

[marielapin.livejournal.com]

Well my Protestant friend living in Diest Belgium was turned off by both Catholic parishes in her area when she went to one for a First Communion and they rewrote the Lord's Prayer and during the homily never once mentioned Jesus or the Eucharist, but only caterpillars turning into butterflies. I myself have been very blessed in the priests I have had. However there are still small liturgical abuses in my own parish. Small, but there. I was suprized last week to find a post on the American Papist blog in which he posted a video of a Mass said with the priest's dog taking the Missal out of the church. Then I found out it was in the parish in the neighboring city.

[mentalguy.livejournal.com]

I think it depends a great deal on the region. My experience of the UK was essentially devoid of the sorts of abuses that I have regularly had to tolerate in this part of the US. I do not expect I would be so fortunate in e.g. Austria. Some parts of the US are also generally better or worse.

To give you an idea, I fled the parish where I was confirmed after the pastor started pushing Rick Warren's "Purpose Driven Life" and removed the tabernacle from the sanctuary in order to accommodate a projection screen for PowerPoint and video presentations during mass. Thankfully the neighboring parishes are nowhere near as bad...

[marielapin.livejournal.com]

ugg. We did go to visit a beautiful new parish outside Knoxville last year when we were in for a wedding. I was very excited because the church had been beautifully constructed in a Tuscan style. However, when I entered, the Tabernacle had been relocated to a special chapel that was not even located in the nave of the church, and inside everyone was wearing name tags and talking very loudly like it was a church social. I couldn't even pray before mass started. The altar was nice but there was a huge area right behind it where the tabernacle should have been that was completely barren. No one seemed to have any respect for the Eucharist or the Mass itself. It was like a circus. This was supposed to be a Catholic Mission.

We recently went to a Novus Ordo in New Orleans at St. Patrick's. It was beautiful. It was done ad orientum, with some prayers in Latin and then Kyrie in Greek. It combined the reverence of the Tridentine with the interaction of the Novus Ordo. The priest also used incense and sung the Eucharistic prayer (in English) and the Gospel. We have a "band " at our parish that act as if they are at a rock performance. The campy music may not be theologically incorrect, but it is spiritually blah. That and we have a flock of Extradordinary Ministers in order to hand out Communion when we have four, and soon to be ten deacons at our parish.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

You mean ad Orientem, of course?

[marielapin.livejournal.com]

of course. ;)

[fpb.livejournal.com]

Other than that, well, I guess I am just lucky. I am not going to question your and mentalguy's experiences. What bothered me is that the rhetoric of conservative blogs is just as intense in England, where I really do not see much ritual mismanagement (although political spinelessness from Bishops is a constant).

[marielapin.livejournal.com]

What about the government in England forcing "equality" in teaching in Catholic schools in England? My cousin in Liverpool told me that a lot of the "Catholics" in her area that convert or have their children baptized do so that they can get a discount on tuition and their children can have First Communion (though I do not understand why they would want this for their children if they themselves are not believers).

[marielapin.livejournal.com]

Here is the account of my friend living in Belgium. She was my best friend during the first two years of high school. I am the friend that converted (eight years ago) and got her interested in Catholicism:

"I've been to mass now twice since I've been in Belgium. That's two times more than I have in my whole life. Some of you know that an old high school friend of mine converted to Catholicism not too long ago, and that inspired me to learn more about the Roman Catholic Church. The mass that I've been to so far has been good, and I've enjoyed the liturgy. The church here in Diest seems to actually having some living elements still left in it. This is something rare for a country that is mostly just culturally Catholic and doesn't take it's faith seriously. A short example of this would be a conversation between my husband and one of his colleagues. My husband was complaining to said colleague, N, that Catholics in this country don't have a clue what Christianity or Catholicism are all about. N begged to differ, so my husband, with great interest, asked her what she knew. Her answer amounted to, "Well, you know. God and stuff..." Most Catholics here go to baptisms, 1st communion, 2nd communion (I don't know the English name for this), weddings and funerals. Occasionally they go on holidays. Most of them don't own Bibles and don't know who or what Jesus is or did or does. It's a very sad thing.

So anyway. This Thursday we were invited to go to a friend from Dutch class's daughter's first communion. I was excited and interested. I wanted to be supportive, and I wanted to see what this important day was about. Excitement was apparently a waste of time. The church was beautiful, the children looked lovely, and the parents were well dressed and looked happy. Unfortunately, I had a hard time spotting Jesus in the ceremony. I did, however, spot their catechism teacher (although it's doubtful that the children heard anything from the catechism). She wore tight knee length shorts and tennis shoes. She had short geled spikey hair. Not only was her sexuality doubtful, but in my opinion she showed absolutely no respect for something that is supposed to be sacred. (How is it that I, as a non-Catholic, know that this was supposed to be sacred, and she does not?) The majority of the service consisted of cute children regurgitating fluffy drivel that has nothing to do with the Gospel. It did not remotely resemble the Catholocism that I've begun researching. Here are some exerpts for you translated from the Dutch:


In place of the Nicene Creed, well loved by the Church, we had...
Dear Jesus, we want to tell you something. Please listen to us.
We believe, that you love us a lot.
You love both big and small, rich and poor.
You love nice people and bad people.
We believe that you made all things.
We believe that you give us all things.

The animals, the flowers, the rain and son,
the sea, the fish and the butterflies.
You are very good for us.
Please help us a little to be like you.
Help us to always remember to think about you.

I think that we need considerably more help than just a little bit to be more like Christ. Also, why exactly was a real creed insufficient? Was the Gospel not good enough for the children?

continued...

[fpb.livejournal.com]

My own experience includes my knowledge of the politics of my country, in which I was deeply interested before I was 15. I think I am as good a witness as the next guy, and the power of Catholicism in Italian public opinion and politics is something I can vouch for.

[marielapin.livejournal.com]

Then, and I am asking this in a completely humble way, how exactly did a goverment get set up that is hostile to marriage and family?

[fpb.livejournal.com]

I will write an article on this. It would take much too long to explain in a post. Besides, I think it might interest other people.