Reflections of a stormy petrel

In that case, why are so many Americans reduced to beg at the ends of their lives? http://fpb.livejournal.com/345158.html That is a third world feature.

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To be quite honest I have never heard of anyone who has had to beg before the way this man did. There are so many charities and foundations willing to help with medical expenses that this story seems, well very odd to me.

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There are so many charities and foundations willing to help with medical expenses...

Are there?

It's not an idle question -- I have a friend, a freelance illustrator, who is in chronic and increasingly debilitating pain, and hasn't even been able to afford medical tests to find out what's wrong with her. Because of the pre-existing condition, insurance would be a non-starter at this point even if she could afford it...

I've been looking for that kind of thing on her behalf, but maybe I just don't know what to look for. Can you give me some direction please?

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Well depending on her condition you can start with the foundations that research that particular condition. My great-aunt could not afford her medication and 90% was paid for by a medical charity association. I would have to call my grandmother to find out which one.

Then of course you have individual church charities, Catholic Charities, etc. I found some good articles of ways you can look for this kind of assistance. Sometimes it is as easy as asking the doctor, as it was in the case of my great-aunt.

http://www.austindiocese.org/newsletter_article_view.php?id=2712
http://www.ehow.com/how_2045505_money-medical-bills.html

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Well depending on her condition you can start with the foundations that research that particular condition.

Part of the difficulty is that we don't know what her condition is yet -- hence the need for tests!

Unfortunately, those articles are not actually very helpful. Many of the suggestions in the ehow article aren't really applicable in this case. (And I have no words for a few of them... Having children sell craft items? Seriously?) Unfortunately, Catholic Charities in her region also doesn't offer services as comprehensive as in Texas.

I don't mean to sound ungrateful; you have given me some additional ideas as far as seeking referrals, so thank you for that. And I found the CC Texas article encouraging; I may pursue CC in her area further. Just... please understand that this is not very easy in practice. Even ehow rates the difficulty as "challenging."

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My great-aunt did not have the money for the testing she needed. While undergoing treatment the doctor found the money for her, after she agreed to actually go in and have tests run. Is your friend not part of any faith community that she could go to?

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Is your friend not part of any faith community that she could go to?

No, she isn't.

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My great-aunt did not have the money for the testing she needed. While undergoing treatment the doctor found the money for her, after she agreed to actually go in and have tests run.

That's encouraging at least. Maybe if my friend finds a more helpful doctor. By all accounts the ones she's seen up to this point have had a more "revolving door" approach to their patients...

Re: The cultural exception argument

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marielapin.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-10-07 06:44 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: The cultural exception argument

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mentalguy.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-10-07 06:55 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: The cultural exception argument

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marielapin.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-10-07 10:26 pm (UTC) - Expand

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It does NOT seem odd to me, since I myself had to help with another such case. It does, however, seem disgusting.

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My mother does not currently have insurance, and my great-aunt was afraid to go to the doctor for over a year due to monetary reasons. However, when they need help they have always found it, either from family or church or charity. The local Knights of Columbus routinely raise money for those who cannot afford certain medical treatments.

It is wrong that those who need help cannot get it because of the monetary factor. Even if it is not obvious, I am in favor of healthcare that is available to all. I am just not in favor of the current proposals that are trying to be ramroded through congress. I have two American friends living in Europe, one in Liverpool, the other in Belgium. They both like and have been greatly helped by their nationalized care in emergency and other major medical conditions. This is such an important issue, and I think it is being handled poorly by the those in charge, who are belittling anyone who has any negative or questioning things to say about it. How is this supposed to glean support or trust?

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From the moment this polemic started, the sole argument that the opponents of health reform have used, in a thousand variations, has been the evil, awfulness and subhumanity of European health systems. Do you remember when the Investors' Business Daily, a conservative thought leader, actually were stupid enough to say that the British Health Service would have condemned Professor Stephen Hawking (a citizen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland) to death? And they did not even really apologize when certain facts were pointed out to them - not least, by the Professor himself. The diet of lies and misrepresentations about national health services has been as unrelenting as it has been repulsive; which is why even someone like

sanscouronne, who has lived in France, is under the impression that Europe groans under the burden of the unburied victims of third-world hospitals. I am sick and tired of it. And if this movement of lies, misrepresentation, and xenophobia, is so wholly unrepresentative, how come that the Democrats, with the Presidency and both houses in their hands, are losing ground in the struggle for reform?

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Um, I am most definitely NOT under that impression, and have said nothing to that effect.

???

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That was an exaggeration. But you said that for every story about an American having to beg for his life you hear about one European dying because kidney operations were not available - that is, the kind of stories that American conservative media keep hammering on in order to try to convince their readers that the European systems are objectively worse than yours. Which is a crock. In every field from infant mortality to expenditure per head, Europe leads the US by a considerable margin. We are healthier and live longer. End of story.

Re: The cultural exception argument

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sanscouronne.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-10-07 06:25 pm (UTC) - Expand

One thing I do not understand

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fpb.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-10-07 07:38 pm (UTC) - Expand

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The story about Stephen Hawking was ridiculous and offensive and deserved an apology.

However, I am wondering what on earth you are reading that you only find such arguments against this legislation. Most of what I read has no problem with the idea itself, only the way in which it is done. The right-wing hard line conservatives are not the only conservatives in this country. A lot of the arguing in town-hall meetings has been over coverage of abortion, not over the expansion of health care itself.

The US Bishops and The Catholic Medical Association have rejected the current health care bills. Why? Not because we as Catholic do not believe that health care should be available to all, but because of what is in the bills themselves. The last link I am posting is an op-ed article on alternatives to Obamacare. You will not see one reference to Europe at all.

http://www.ncregister.com/daily/u.s._bishops_reject_all_current_health_care_bills

http://www.ncregister.com/daily/problems_remain_with_health-care_reform_bills

http://www.cathmed.org/assets/files/Open%20Letter%20to%20Catholics%20and%20Catholic%20Organizations%20FINAL%203.pdf

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204251404574342170072865070.html

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Yes. And the US bishops are in the crosshairs of the conservatives within the Catholic Church because they have said that they would favour a national health service apart from the matter of abortion. My impression is that a lot of conservatives are using abortion as an excuse (some of them favour it) to get support from Catholics and other Christians, but their main argument is always that "socialized medicine" is some sort of tyranny. This is the same kind of people who insist that Fascism and Nazism were branches of Socialism.

Re: The cultural exception argument

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marielapin.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-10-07 06:51 pm (UTC) - Expand

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And to further dispel you of this false impression, I will tell you all that while living in France, I enjoyed very good healthcare (albeit limited, as I was healthy the whole time, and only had a routine physical to get my visa), as did my American companions.

*That being said, I can say the same with respect to my experience with healthcare in the United States. Which is why I would not use my personal experience in either country, nor anecdotes from anyone else, to draw general conclusions.

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I think, by the way, that we ought to distinguish between the specific Democratic legislation and health reform qua health reform.

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I think that however it happened, it would be opposed. As President Obama pointed out, he is hardly the first to try and introduce some national health scheme; every one, including that of the Republican Nixon, has been defeated. I think that if Congress ever prepared a perfect bipartisan scheme with the keys to Heaven as a side offer, the majority of Americans would elect to go to Hell to show their independence of the State.

Re: The cultural exception argument

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mentalguy.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-10-07 07:46 pm (UTC) - Expand

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Even if it is not obvious, I am in favor of healthcare that is available to all. I am just not in favor of the current proposals that are trying to be ramroded through congress....This is such an important issue, and I think it is being handled poorly by the those in charge, who are belittling anyone who has any negative or questioning things to say about it. How is this supposed to glean support or trust?

This is pretty much my own position as well. Though I unfortunately do know people who fit the pattern fpb describes.

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(Well, more than that. 10-15 years ago, I used to be one.)

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While I do not deny the veracity of this story, or the backdrop from which it has emerged, I must point out that for every anecdote about someone struggling to pay for medical care, there is one about a Canadian/European dying waiting for a kidney transplant or something akin to that. Both of these cases reveal actual problems in these countries' respective healthcare industries, but I would not say that any of them are illustrative of the majority experience.

Again, this is not to say that there needs to be major change in U.S. healthcare, but the situation is a bit more nuanced, and the perspectives along the political spectrum tend to be more concentrated in the middle, and not like the one of the man quoted above. Also, in your linked post you aptly described the general difference between Americans and Europeans (other Western states) concerning the tenuous relationship between citizen and state. I have lived in heavily Republican and Democrat states, and can probably count on one hand the number of loonies on both sides.

In short, I assure you, the U.S. is hardly approaching a state of radical conservative dystopia, in which the masses are dying in the street due to a bunch of men who spit on maps of Europe. Major problems? Yes. Is the obvious solution national healthcare a la France, or the U.K., etc? No, and it isn't strictly due to some inherent dislike of Europe, and it isn't madness to think otherwise. As your linked post pointed out, there are some major cultural differences here.

I apologize that this was rather verbose.

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Very well said.

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As I said elsewhere, we live longer, are healthier, and, last but not least, pay less for it. (Health spending as a percentage of GDP is about 8-8.5% in western Europe, and 13% in the USA.) This is not a matter of anecdotes; the superiority of our variety of systems is measurable.

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I do not disagree with these statistics. I am merely pointing out that it is not absurd to oppose a copy-and-paste reproduction of a European healthcare system in the United States. The United States and the countries of Europe are very different from one another. We have different demographic structures, and a far larger population than any individual European country. For example, Americans have a larger proportion of people suffering from obesity, which undoubtedly drives down our average life expectancy. Can this be uniquely attributed to our inferior ability to ensure healthcare? I would argue no. *

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