The end of the road

[fpb]

Well, England has pulled the rope once too often and it broke. A few days ago I called the English hatred of Europe a mental illness; now we see it in full swing. The sulphurous pleasure that seems to dominate even GUARDIAN Comment-Is-Free columns seems to me wholly impossible to understand. These people imagine that a country of sixty million people can "renegotiate", to its own advantage its membership of a club of 28 countries and 400,000,000 people. One does not have to have a deep knowledge of the fact to call this an insane, out-of-touch-with-reality, diseased ideation.

Even worse, the final blow of the English knife could not have come at a worse time. Every European leader will feel that Cameron tried to blackmail them as they were struggling for the life of the European project. No wonder nobody wanted to speak with him this morning. Nigel Farage drew attention to President Sarkozy's fury, but I would be more worried about what must be an equally intense rage from Bundeskanzlerin Angela Merkel. It's not just that she is, by everyone's acknowledgement, the most powerful person in Europe (give or take her fellow-countryman in the Vatican); it is that, as Silvio Berlusconi found out, fat, easily-mocked little Angela, with her frumpy one-size-too-small pants suits (and by the height of misfortune Hilary Clinton around to show how they should be worn) and her inability to speak any language but her own, is someone who makes you pay. Sarkozy may be here today and gone tomorrow, blown about by his mercurial energy, but Angela Merkel can and will remember. If she could end the apparently bomb-proof career of Europe's biggest scoundrel, she can certainly make any British politician regret the day they were born.

What do these people expect? The first demand to renegotiate British membership will be met by a series of actively damaging regulations that will cut European capital off from the City. Do they seriously think otherwise? You cannot negotiate to your advantage unless you are holding a really big stick, and England has none. English business, English exports, the English public and private accounts, none of them are anything worth writing home about. The only thing that stands out is the City, and exclusion from Europe will certainly damage that. Even granting that it can keep the confidence of the Russian, Arab and other third world billionaires who still flock to London with their more or less lawfully acquired wealth, to be left to trust on that sort of people would make the City an even dodgier-looking place than it is today. They speak of Switzerland; but Switzerland, apart from the ancient treaties that guarantee her neutrality, never left the impression of despising Europe and everything in it, and never used a moment of crisis to stab the Union in the back.

England's relationship with Europe is pathological

Comments

[spaceanjl.livejournal.com]

You think we're all impressed here? The Old Boy's Network and the overprivileged, overpaid assholes in the City have a f*cking stranglehold, and they will see every last one of us flushed down the crapper before they let go of their own narrow, insular, idiotic self-interest - as long as they get their bonuses, and can continue their comfortable lives, the hell with rest of us.

So please don't tar all of us with the same brush. I didn't vote for them, and we seem to have no way of protesting against the stupidity.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

I do beg your pardon. But I felt the same blast of crazed joy not only from Mail and Telegraph but even from several comments in Comment Is Free. Unfortunately, there are more Englishmen who think like this than either of us would like - certainly enough to win an election.

[spaceanjl.livejournal.com]

The Press exists to sell itself. And now the Internet allows all kinds of faceless twits to mouth off without engaging brain, or facing consequences.

Human beings as a whole are greedy, venal and stupid, and easily manipulated by the tools of fear and faith. But a majority of them would just like to live their lives quietly, without the dick swinging and sabre waggling. I'm with Douglas Adams on the idea that nobody who wants to be in power should be allowed anywhere near it.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

Yes, but in order to sell there have to be people who buy it; and that means that the kind of views espoused in the Daily Jail and the Torygraph must be common enough to sell papers on. Right? Of course, right.

As for the Douglas Adams line, it's a good joke, but it would never work. Imagine a world where anyone who wanted to be a dentist would be prevented from being one. I think I would rather let people decide what careers they want.

[sabethea.livejournal.com]

in order to sell there have to be people who buy it; and that means that the kind of views espoused in the Daily Jail and the Torygraph must be common enough to sell papers on.

It's interesting, isn't it: do papers affect values or values affect papers? And it's a bit of both, so it becomes self-fulfilling.

For example, the Daily Fail says Europe is terrible and brings up some reasons why. Now, they may be reporting truths - often they are - but by not giving the whole picture they are distorting the picture thoroughly. (Like when someone says "Five people were caught bringing illegal drugs into the country in the space of an hour!" and fails to say that "Fifty thousand people came in during that time and WEREN'T bringing drugs...") And one then notices the things which fit in with one's world view, and become further convinced that That Viewpoint Is The Only Correct One, especially when it's backed up in the paper you read...

[jordan179.livejournal.com]

The EU has never been particularly-popular with the British, and now the EU is collapsing. It's not surprising that the British may pull out. The British leadership may imagine that they are going to "renegotiate terms" -- but before this is over, the British people may wind up electing a leadership which rejects EU membership entirely.

That's what happens when you try to create a "union" governed by appointed officials, lacking a unified army, and composed of different states which lack a common culture, lack a common language. The EU lacks legitimacy in the eyes of the people of the constituent nations, and it even lacks the ability to hold itself together by force. It's pretty much doomed.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

"The EU is collapsing?" Sez who? The same goddamn journalists and "experts" who never saw the collapse of the Soviet Union coming and who thought Japan would take over the universe? Let's try and talk a little sense here. What you have here is a crisis. What you see here is a lot of governments and people standing around wondering what to do. What you DO NOT see is anyone - not even Cameron - headed for the exit. Even the lunatics behind Cameron want to "renegotiate", not - except for the maddest - to leave the EU or to try and break it down. And Cameron has NO friends elsewhere. All the alliances on which he had counted - with the Czech Republic, with Sweden, even with the Fascists of Roumania - have collapsed, because none of those people were looking to really damage the Union; they only wanted a little extra for themselves.

There is no alternative to the European Union, and nobody wants to contemplate a pulverized Europe with people having to use visas and negotiate tax barriers and unsteady exchange rates to go from Milan to Vienna or from Bratislava to Budapest. It's as simple as that. So if and when this largely fraudulent crisis, invented by New York City ratings agencies WHILE THE EURO WAS RISING, NOT FALLING, manages to damage the Euro, what will happen is that some sort of other agreement will be reached. What will NOT happen is that the Union will collapse. Be clear on that, and don't listen to fairy tales.

[jordan179.livejournal.com]

There is no alternative to the European Union, and nobody wants to contemplate a pulverized Europe with people having to use visas and negotiate tax barriers and unsteady exchange rates to go from Milan to Vienna or from Bratislava to Budapest. It's as simple as that.

You're assuming that one must either have an entity organized exactly like the EU and with all the authoritarian powers and lack of democratic accountability of the current EU, or absolutely no European economic and customs organization at all. The choice is not that stark. The EU was formed in 1993: I do not remember Europe exactly being an impoverished anarchy in the 1970's and 1980's, under the old EEC!

So if and when this largely fraudulent crisis, invented by New York City ratings agencies WHILE THE EURO WAS RISING, NOT FALLING ...

I understand that the messengers annoy you. But you should consider that the ratings agencies are commercial concerns: if any one ratings agency knowingly delivers false information, it will hurt its own long-term reputation and hence its ability to earn a profit for its service. Are you seriously arguing that the heads of the ratings agencies conspired to do Europe down? And if so, why didn't European-based ratings agencies counter with the truth? I have heard tell that there is still some financial activity within the City of London, the Paris Bourse, etc.

I do not think that the European Union will collapse utterly, but I do think that it is likely to lose a lot of its reputation and power -- unless it manages this whole crisis (most especially the Greek part of it) better than seems currently to be likely. A leader must emerge, or the EU will shrink in terms of authority.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

The EU is the old EEC. End of story.

And since when have the tea-leaf readers and crystal ball gazers at S&P ever got anything right? What was their opinion of Lehmann Brothers in July 2007? They are messengers of nothing except their own efforts at divination.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

"A leader must emerge."
Rubbish. I would remind you that Great Britain defeated Napoleon while being led by one of the worst collections of nobodies in the admittedly undistinguished history of British government. Can you even remember who was Prime Minister at the time?

[fpb.livejournal.com]

P.S.: about Europe not having a common culture, do you have the least idea what you are saying? Almost every European country has laws derived closely from the Code Napoleon, the same classical music, the same theatrical and literary traditions, the same children's books and road codes, the same artistic heritage - Paris and London are just as much parts of the Italian cultural heritage as Italy itself is part of the English, French, German cultural heritage - even at the height of that unnatural horror called the Reformation, ideas migrated freely from Stockholm to Palermo and from Riga to Lisbon. Everything from opera houses to bell towers is the same. Look at the instance of India. Language is not the only evidence of common culture, and sometimes it's no evidence at all - Hindi and Urdu are practically the same language, but a Hindi-speaker from Uttar Pradesh has more culturally and politically in common with a Malayalam speaker from South India than with an Urdu speaker from Pakistan, unless of course the Hindi speaker in question is also a Muslim. Europe is one culture. Please stop listening to doctrinaire idiots.

[helixaspersa.livejournal.com]

It's a mess I agree; but it may not make much difference if the agreement reached yesterday fails quite quickly, which I think it probably will - fails I mean to arrest the escalating crisis of the single currency. In that case either an actual break-up or at least a further crisis-summit will supersede it. But - much as I dislike him - I also don't think for a minute that this was the outcome Cameron had in mind.

I don't think you can judge too much from internet comments. The FT and the Economist both have quite a high quality of comments on average, but maybe the paywall - or the relatively technical content - makes a difference.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

There will be no break-up. At worst, temporary agreement will follow temporary agreement until the markets are tired of scaring themselves stupid and decide to find something else to get excited about. At best, we will finally have a sensible nucleus of pan-European governance, preferably elected. Nobody is even considering a break-up. Would YOU want to be in a condition where you have to have a passport and visa to go to Paris or to the Alps, and where business had to contend with dozens of borders and of exchange rates? That is a rhetorical question, of course.

"I.. don't think for aminute that this was the outcome Cameron had in mind." Exactly. He thought he could play obstruction and get brownie points from his lunatic party members without running any serious risk. Which makes him an incompetent in his own field, because any politician ought to have realized that a crisis summit called under severe pressure was the last place to show oneself obstructive and disloyal. And never mind whether the idiots in the Daily Jail were insisting that "this is the right moment to force a repatriation of powers". Repeating rubbish does not make it any more true than it was the first time. Marina Hyde explained it all in her blog in words that a child could understand, and she was vilified for her pains.

The absurd myths built around Margaret Thatcher are part of the mental illness. They miss the two most important things about Thatcher. First, she signed the Maastricht Treaty. That was because she realized she could not stop it, and that at the end of the day it was more in Britain's interest to be in than out. Second, when she tried using the veto against the Euro, that was the end of her: the Europeans simply went ahead without her, and she came home from Rome with her aura of success broken. Within a month, she was gone. Now this is exactly what happened here to Cameron - and, never forget, Clegg. It may well be the that it is LibDem discontent that brings the government down, because Nick Clegg really has surrendered far too much and lied far too much simply for the pleasure of being a minister.

[helixaspersa.livejournal.com]

I meant a break-up of the currency, not the union. I think at least one country leaving the euro is pretty likely, and a complete collapse not impossible.

[fpb.livejournal.com]

The fact is that the countries most under attack are the ones who will do the most to prevent it. Greece would have to be dragged kicking and screaming out of the Euro; polls say that 70% of the Greek electorate is in favour of the Euro. Italy going out is unimaginable - that would indeed mean the break-up of the currency, and Germany and France will not allow it as long as they are themselves committed to the Euro. Which they are. This whole thing has been blown way out of all proportion. When, two years ago, people in America started to talk about the break-up of the Euro, I ridiculed the idea, and I haven't changed my mind.

[helixaspersa.livejournal.com]

Well we'll see! I hope you're right. In any case I don't think this week's agreement has done anything significant to improve the situation.

Re: This Europa? No grazie

[fpb.livejournal.com]

You misrepresent or ignore what I said.

Re: The rant continues

[fpb.livejournal.com]

Yes, I would also like to live in Paradise. Meanwhile I work with what I have where I am.

Re: Two more and then basta

[fpb.livejournal.com]

Quanti transessuali conosci?

Quanto al resto, mi sembra un lungo "Fermate il mondo, voglio scendere". Lo stesso modo di pensare dei pazzi Tory in questo paese.

Re: The end of the road

[nevillegamgee.livejournal.com]

You need to check your figures: England's population is not sixty million. It's roughly just over 51 million.

Re: The end of the road

[fpb.livejournal.com]

Two points. First, the government of David Cameron represents, God knows how, sixty million Britons, not just forty-seven million Englishmen. Point two: I worked in the 2001 Census and I can tell you for a fact that all numbers arising from that and succeeding counts are untrustworthy. I am certain that I under-reported the number of people in my area, especially those of foreign origin who needed a little help, because I was not allowed enough time to do my job. Multiply this across the face of Britain and you have an utterly unreliable set of figures caused by stupid cheese-paring.

The end of the road

[nevillegamgee.livejournal.com]

You stated in the original post that 'England' had a population of (roughly) sixty-odd million people. Allow me to quote:

'Well, England has pulled the rope once too often and it broke ... These people imagine that a country of sixty million people can "renegotiate" ...'

Please don't misunderstand me; I have no problem with the point you are making re: England v's Europe. In fact, I hate David Cameron and his fecking Tory twats, and they have little to no representation in my country of Scotland, and they absolutely do NOT speak for us, no matter what they may claim otherwise (as any Scot will tell you). What really bothers me is that you gave the population stats above as the total population for England alone when, in fact, they are for the 'United' Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. We are not British, or Britons or English. We are Scottish. And we hate having our country so completely discounted and dismissed, as if we don't even exist.

Regards.

Re: The end of the road

[fpb.livejournal.com]

Sounds to me as if there was little I could have said which would not have caused offence to you. What I actually said was that the Tabloid-Tory idea that a country of sixty million people can "renegotiate", to its own advantage its membership of a club of 28 countries and 400,000,000 people was an insane, out-of-touch-with-reality, diseased ideation. What, in that, is offensive? There is, at present, a state in Great Britain and surrounding islands of sixty or more million inhabitants, whose head of government is David Cameron of that Ilk; and I called the idea that such a state could successfully browbeat a continent into doing the will of its Tory leaders "crazed, out of touch, diseased". The whole idea, including the vision of sixty million people following Tories and tabloids into their delirium. As for calling Scots "Britons," historically that has been a constant Scottish demand, and if that offends you, I suggest you take it out on your ancestors and not on me.