that is indeed a problem with a lot of Snape fics... perhaps not so much with fics in which Snape is not involved in a romantic relationship though: after all, even though I agree with you that the canon Snape is certainly not physically attractive, he is quite a fascinating character. Fics that explore his complex attitudes regarding Dumbledore, the Dark Arts, Voldemort,the Malfoys, Harry Potter, etc. are usually quite interesting and not at all given to romanticizing his voice or physical appearance. Mind you, a lot of Draco fics have him as a sex god whereas neither the canon character nor the movie actor is particularly sexy, so I guess you can't fight the overwhelming power of hormones and fantasy... (and the need to turn every negative character into a sexy bad boy, because it is a universally acknowledged truth that, against all logic, evil = sexy ;) ).
I hear you talking. I have already had a few things to say about the cult of the Bad Boy as seen in Draco - namely, that in real life such hopes guarantee that the Bad Boy will take his attitudes to the relationship and the bedroom, with the results to be expected. JKR has given some very credible and interesting depictions of unattractive people - Snape, Draco, Pansy, Lucius, Narcissa - and in spite of all the canon evidence, every single one of them has been repeatedly prettyfied by dozens of fan writers, to the extent that in every casse the fanon image contradicts the canon.
Well I guess that things which may be desirable in fiction are often not desirable in real life. In a slightly different vein, I find it interesting that a lot of fics go against the canon idea that you don't have to be pureblood to be a great wizard and go out of their way to invent a pureblood heritage for Hermione or Lily. It's really fascinating to see how the trends in fanfiction reveal much about how people relate to the books: which details they'd rather emphasize or gloss over, etc.
Which raises the problem: if the books are so universally popular (Muslim prisoners in Guantanamo Bay are reputed to ask for them) that they surely answer some primary impulse, why do their very fans want to change their contents around in such an ideologically loaded way? Why do we want to change what we love?
We don't change what we love - a lot of the Potterverse is dull. We kept what we love (the story where we are the hero(ine)), and told that in fanfiction. JK Rowling didn't tell her story for us, we're just fixing things we know are true.
No you haven't - you've made Draco gay, and made Ginny into a version of your angellic heroine. It's fanfic - you're allowed to improve the original story. It's up to the readers to let you know if you oversteped and the original story is lost. Meanwhile, you put your passion into bringing your own world to life. JKR put her passion into bringing her world to life. Her world is pretty miserable - eleven year olds are left alone (by adults with full knowledge of the risks) to fight evil. That's not my world. I'm not passionate about it. I like the old "no one is evil from the inside" view which makes an eleven-year-old unreliable narrator's descpition of Snape very open to to interpretation.
My deepest apologies for the previous answer, which I have deleted. The only excuse for that stunning outburst of stupidity was that I am not feeling particularly well today.
mmm I don't know, that's an interesting question...
I guess wanting to change something proves that you care in a way, that the books don't leave you indifferent. I don't think people would bother rewriting a story they thought was crap. I actually like it when people write fics which turn canon upside down, make you think differently about it. But yeah, it is puzzling that what may seem to me to be one of the essential things that make the book good is also one of the first things that other people will want to get rid of.
I guess there's something in Harry Potter akin to the quality of myth or mastepieces like Shakespeare's plays: a basic core structure which has a very strong appeal and touches on very important issues, but which is rich and flexible enough that you can use it and transform it in tons of different ways, even ways that go radically against the original impulse.
Also, there is a tendency of many people to smooth away the inconvenient bits: turn the unfamiliar into familiar (cf. the numerous fics with elements from teenage american culture, written by American teenagers), the grey into either black or white (Snape is either a monster or a genius and a sex-symbol, Ron either a flawless friend or a narrow-minded idiot...etc), the uncertainty into certainties (by the end of the story, every villain must be dead and every good character involved in a serious love relationship, one can know from someone's birth what kind of person he's going to be), etc.
Rowling herself doesn't always resist the temptation: her sudden transformation of Kreacher from disgusting creature to member of Harry Potter's fanclub is not a great moment of subtlety, but I guess we poor fanficers are more often guilty of those crimes...
I would say that the Kreacher transformation moment is a point where JKR's personal beliefs prevail over her narrative instincts, as they rarely do elsewhere. It hits us over the head with the fact that Hermione was right - even though JKR herself had previously treated Hermione's crusading attitudes with a justifiably double-edged irony. The conversion of Draco and the Malfoys is rather better handled, but I am afraid it still has the same effect on me. And on the other hand there is the imprudent blanket condemnation of Slytherins - by the time we get to the seventh book, only one Slytherin has actively taken sides on the good side, and that one, Slughorn, has practically been compelled by Dumbledore. That is one thing I have happily modified in my own fics.
The luminously brave and amazingly powerful heroine in The First Nymphadora is a Slytherin. But that has something to do with the fact that, unlike JKR, I do not have a prejudice against politicians as such.
Going to a lonely, horrible death; unable to say goodbye to your loved ones for fear that they will suffer if you do; knowing that this is the only way to strike a blow against Voldemort? Sounds like actively taking sides to me!
Besides, Hogwarts students are what, eleven when sorted? Nature, family and then their house are all conspiring to keep them on one side. Sure, a handful will actually choose otherwise: but most won't even realise that there *is* a choice. Although a muggleborn Slytherin would be an interesting case study.
well, it's true that we do have two Sytherin adults (Snape and Regulus) who changed their mind after going with the Death Eaters. They still went, mind you and we know that Snape's reasons for turning back at least were not purely about right and wrong, which begs the question: if Lily had left the country for Switzerland at the beginning of war, would he have been happy to remain a Death Eater? But fair enough, let's admit that Snape and Regulus chose the side of light and thus prove that redemption is possible for Slytherins...
But having none of the Slytherin currently at Hogwarts join the side of Light? I mean precisely because they're only eleven when they're sorted, and also because they represent after all a full quarter of the school, you would expect that at least some of them (even just one) would, by the time they're 15, 16, 17, start thinking a little independently, especially once it has become clear lives were at stake.
"Sure, a handful will actually choose otherwise: but most won't even realise that there *is* a choice."
I totally agree with that, I think that's a realistic view: the majority follows and a handful acts differently. Except that in Canon, among the students of Harry's generation, there is not a single Slytherin joining the rebellion or deciding to stay at Hogwarts for the battle. It didn't have to be Malfoy or anything, but at least one token Slytherin, just to show that because you're ambitious and cunning at 11 doesn't mean you'll be evil all your life, would have been nice. Because otherwise it seems that being a Slytherin marks you for evil from the start and surely it'd be daft for a school to sort one fourth of its students into "road to evil".
I don't like fics going all whiny whine about Slytherins being poor misunderstood creatures, but Rowling's depiction of them does not completely satisfy me either.
To be ambitious and cunning does not mean to be evil unless you exercise your cunning in evil ways, or else fathers of our nation like Washington, de Gaulle or Cavour would have to count as villains. Of course, some such people definitely are villainous - Vittorio Emanuele II, Bismarck and Richelieu come to mind. But another question I had was about JKR's neurotic fear and hatred of politics and administration, and her replacement of patriotism with provinciality. I suspect this has to do with her downgrading of "ambition". Indeed, in Slytherin House as she depicts it, ambition seems to have morphed into its very reverse - conformity, bootlicking and a complete lack of individuality. This may, of course, be the shape that ambition takes in a society dominated by various immovable bureaucracies, but it is a mean and diminished version of what ambition really means. I hope you are ambitious in your goals, and I certainly am in mine. That is nothing to be ashamed of.
To be fair, there are several scenes in which the Slytherins are presented - in closing banquets and the like - as a whole house, and in every one of these, except for the final one (the gathering of the houses as the Battle of Hogwarts is about to take place), Draco Malfoy and his followers are shown to be a minority among the Slytherins. It is only "some" of the Slytherins, for instance, who refuse to drink to Cedric's memory and Harry's courage at the end of Goblet of Fire. And it is possible to say that the Slytherins were simply overcome by events - by Pansy Parkinson's contemptible display, Minerva McGonagall's burst of anger, everyone else's immediate condemnation; that they allowed themselves to be shepherded out of the building; and that then many of them came back along with their Housemaster and the people of Hogsmeade, in the rescuing force that drove the Death Eaters into the building. This is a possible reading, and I used to rely on it a lot. But the thing is, JKR has not supported it - to the best of my knowledge - and so the situation is that, to the best of our knowledge, only three Slytherins - Snape, Regulus and Slughorn - have in fact taken the side of the light in earnest, with three more - the Malfoys - breaking away from Voldemort when his dislike for them became obvious, without for that reason doing anything to help the Light. Not, as things stand, a tidy budget.
Incidentally, I would disagree that it was "only" love for Lily that made Snape abandon the dark. Lily was rather the embodyment of everything that held him away from becoming a Carrow or a Malfoy; and JKR shows Dumbledore's judgment of him shifting from contempt to complete trust and even dependency. When Dumbledore thought, as you do, that Snape had only broken with Voldemort because of Lily, he treated him with abruptness and contempt; after a few years getting to know him, he had every confidence that, whatever happened, Snape would not abandon the right side. This is about more than one beautiful redhead.
As for turning canon upside down, I think it can be done without actually breaking it. Most of Hijja's fics, apart from her overrating of Lucius Malfoy, stay well within canon. And have you had a look at some of mine? I like to think that something like The First Nymphadora really does something to make you look at several features of canon from a different viewpoint.
I haven't read the First Nymphadora yet, but I'll definitely have a look.
Recently, Not in the Hands of Boys, by Fourth Rose got my attention in that respect: there is unfortunately a slight pro-Slytherin bias (and it is H/D, which I think is not your cup of tea; anyway the "romantic" aspect of the fic is not the best handled nor what makes it truly fascinating), but it raises many questions on the Deathly Hallows and on Dumbledore, it's really thought-provoking. Its use of the epilogue in particular is a stroke of genius.
Your comment about transforming Shakespeare amused me a little because of the context here about Snape/Rickman. I read an interview once with Rickman where he was asked how Hamlet could "refreshed" and his response was simply "When did it get old?"
Rickman has suddenly shot to the top of my good guys'n'gals list. I have a blazing hatred for the complex of idiotic assumptions behind the interviewer's question, but Rickman dealt with it with such class that there is nothing more to be said.
Because we change things to match what we *want*. Want =/= need =/= love.
Which, I suspect, is why so many married couples are desperately unhappy. They've either turned their partner into what they want, and so no longer have what they need or love; or are still trying to do so and are therefore incredibly frustrated.
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Date: 2008-08-23 01:24 pm (UTC)perhaps not so much with fics in which Snape is not involved in a romantic relationship though: after all, even though I agree with you that the canon Snape is certainly not physically attractive, he is quite a fascinating character. Fics that explore his complex attitudes regarding Dumbledore, the Dark Arts, Voldemort,the Malfoys, Harry Potter, etc. are usually quite interesting and not at all given to romanticizing his voice or physical appearance.
Mind you, a lot of Draco fics have him as a sex god whereas neither the canon character nor the movie actor is particularly sexy, so I guess you can't fight the overwhelming power of hormones and fantasy... (and the need to turn every negative character into a sexy bad boy, because it is a universally acknowledged truth that, against all logic, evil = sexy ;) ).
no subject
Date: 2008-08-23 01:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-08-23 02:12 pm (UTC)In a slightly different vein, I find it interesting that a lot of fics go against the canon idea that you don't have to be pureblood to be a great wizard and go out of their way to invent a pureblood heritage for Hermione or Lily.
It's really fascinating to see how the trends in fanfiction reveal much about how people relate to the books: which details they'd rather emphasize or gloss over, etc.
no subject
Date: 2008-08-23 02:27 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-08-23 02:33 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-08-23 02:46 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-08-23 05:19 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-08-23 06:36 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-08-23 02:47 pm (UTC)I guess wanting to change something proves that you care in a way, that the books don't leave you indifferent. I don't think people would bother rewriting a story they thought was crap.
I actually like it when people write fics which turn canon upside down, make you think differently about it.
But yeah, it is puzzling that what may seem to me to be one of the essential things that make the book good is also one of the first things that other people will want to get rid of.
I guess there's something in Harry Potter akin to the quality of myth or mastepieces like Shakespeare's plays: a basic core structure which has a very strong appeal and touches on very important issues, but which is rich and flexible enough that you can use it and transform it in tons of different ways, even ways that go radically against the original impulse.
Also, there is a tendency of many people to smooth away the inconvenient bits: turn the unfamiliar into familiar (cf. the numerous fics with elements from teenage american culture, written by American teenagers), the grey into either black or white (Snape is either a monster or a genius and a sex-symbol, Ron either a flawless friend or a narrow-minded idiot...etc), the uncertainty into certainties (by the end of the story, every villain must be dead and every good character involved in a serious love relationship, one can know from someone's birth what kind of person he's going to be), etc.
Rowling herself doesn't always resist the temptation: her sudden transformation of Kreacher from disgusting creature to member of Harry Potter's fanclub is not a great moment of subtlety, but I guess we poor fanficers are more often guilty of those crimes...
no subject
Date: 2008-08-23 03:00 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-08-23 03:18 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-08-23 06:39 pm (UTC)Eh-hem.....
Date: 2008-08-24 06:03 am (UTC)Going to a lonely, horrible death; unable to say goodbye to your loved ones for fear that they will suffer if you do; knowing that this is the only way to strike a blow against Voldemort?
Sounds like actively taking sides to me!
Besides, Hogwarts students are what, eleven when sorted? Nature, family and then their house are all conspiring to keep them on one side. Sure, a handful will actually choose otherwise: but most won't even realise that there *is* a choice.
Although a muggleborn Slytherin would be an interesting case study.
Re: Eh-hem.....
Date: 2008-08-24 06:25 am (UTC)Re: Eh-hem.....
Date: 2008-08-25 07:02 am (UTC)But having none of the Slytherin currently at Hogwarts join the side of Light? I mean precisely because they're only eleven when they're sorted, and also because they represent after all a full quarter of the school, you would expect that at least some of them (even just one) would, by the time they're 15, 16, 17, start thinking a little independently, especially once it has become clear lives were at stake.
"Sure, a handful will actually choose otherwise: but most won't even realise that there *is* a choice."
I totally agree with that, I think that's a realistic view: the majority follows and a handful acts differently. Except that in Canon, among the students of Harry's generation, there is not a single Slytherin joining the rebellion or deciding to stay at Hogwarts for the battle.
It didn't have to be Malfoy or anything, but at least one token Slytherin, just to show that because you're ambitious and cunning at 11 doesn't mean you'll be evil all your life, would have been nice.
Because otherwise it seems that being a Slytherin marks you for evil from the start and surely it'd be daft for a school to sort one fourth of its students into "road to evil".
I don't like fics going all whiny whine about Slytherins being poor misunderstood creatures, but Rowling's depiction of them does not completely satisfy me either.
Re: Eh-hem.....
Date: 2008-08-25 08:01 am (UTC)To be fair, there are several scenes in which the Slytherins are presented - in closing banquets and the like - as a whole house, and in every one of these, except for the final one (the gathering of the houses as the Battle of Hogwarts is about to take place), Draco Malfoy and his followers are shown to be a minority among the Slytherins. It is only "some" of the Slytherins, for instance, who refuse to drink to Cedric's memory and Harry's courage at the end of Goblet of Fire. And it is possible to say that the Slytherins were simply overcome by events - by Pansy Parkinson's contemptible display, Minerva McGonagall's burst of anger, everyone else's immediate condemnation; that they allowed themselves to be shepherded out of the building; and that then many of them came back along with their Housemaster and the people of Hogsmeade, in the rescuing force that drove the Death Eaters into the building. This is a possible reading, and I used to rely on it a lot. But the thing is, JKR has not supported it - to the best of my knowledge - and so the situation is that, to the best of our knowledge, only three Slytherins - Snape, Regulus and Slughorn - have in fact taken the side of the light in earnest, with three more - the Malfoys - breaking away from Voldemort when his dislike for them became obvious, without for that reason doing anything to help the Light. Not, as things stand, a tidy budget.
Incidentally, I would disagree that it was "only" love for Lily that made Snape abandon the dark. Lily was rather the embodyment of everything that held him away from becoming a Carrow or a Malfoy; and JKR shows Dumbledore's judgment of him shifting from contempt to complete trust and even dependency. When Dumbledore thought, as you do, that Snape had only broken with Voldemort because of Lily, he treated him with abruptness and contempt; after a few years getting to know him, he had every confidence that, whatever happened, Snape would not abandon the right side. This is about more than one beautiful redhead.
no subject
Date: 2008-08-23 03:03 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-08-23 03:24 pm (UTC)Recently, Not in the Hands of Boys, by Fourth Rose got my attention in that respect: there is unfortunately a slight pro-Slytherin bias (and it is H/D, which I think is not your cup of tea; anyway the "romantic" aspect of the fic is not the best handled nor what makes it truly fascinating), but it raises many questions on the Deathly Hallows and on Dumbledore, it's really thought-provoking.
Its use of the epilogue in particular is a stroke of genius.
no subject
Date: 2008-08-23 03:31 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-08-23 06:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-08-24 06:08 am (UTC)Which, I suspect, is why so many married couples are desperately unhappy. They've either turned their partner into what they want, and so no longer have what they need or love; or are still trying to do so and are therefore incredibly frustrated.